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Dirac and room correction software
#31
(22-Mar-2015, 03:51)MountainGuy Wrote: Apologies but I have a neophyte question. Since I've not used any room correction whether via hardware or software, I realize that I can't grasp all of what each of your posts mean as I would need the hardware/software in had and actually try it to get the whole picture. 


But in short here are my neophyte question based on the fact that if I do get a Devialet system, I would be running the music off my Windows 8.1 laptop with a CD player attached.  

Hello - I'll have a shot at some answers.  They're based on my (limited) experience with Dirac SE.

(22-Mar-2015, 03:51)MountainGuy Wrote: 1. My understanding is that Devialet apparently does not plan to incorporate room correction capability in their systems.  Correct? 

Difficult to be sure about this.  There was a recent rumour that they might be adding it, but in the past they have said it won't happen.  I'm assuming that it won't be added in the near future.

(22-Mar-2015, 03:51)MountainGuy Wrote: 2. However, aftermarket correction can be accomplished upstream of the Devialet? 

3. And this correction can be done via software or hardware.  Is this correct or must I get some type of hardware such as DSpeaker Antimode or miniDSP hardware?  

Yes.  It can be done in software running on a PC or Mac, streaming to the Devialet by AIR.  I've used Dirac like that on my Mac, and I believe others on the forum have used Dirac and/or other software on PCs.  It's obviously a little inconvenient as it limits your choice of sources and you have to have a computer running to listen to music.

Using an upstream hardware device such as an AntiMode or miniDSP would work, and in principle is more convenient, but may limit your sources in a different way.

(22-Mar-2015, 03:51)MountainGuy Wrote: 4. Is there a list somewhere of the credible room correction options?  And any sense if there are some that are generally accepted as being the most effective? 

I don't recall seeing a list as such.  Apart from the options mentioned here, Room Equalisation Wizard (REW), Acourate and Audiolense should probably be on the list.

(22-Mar-2015, 03:51)MountainGuy Wrote: And yes, I already do have some room treatment items though I've not fully utilized them.  My room is a small 11x13 feet room so it is a challenge.  I like balanced but deep bass extension for acoustic music which gives a realistic foundation. 

The all in one unit and SAM capability of the Devialet is very attractive.  

Thanks in advance for any help in understanding a bit more about room correction for a neophyte. 

Thanks again!
MtnGuy 

Would be very interesting to hear how you get on!

Hope that's (somewhat) helpful,

Ian
Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Sonos ZP90 (Cullen modified), Devialet 440 Pro, Kaiser Chiara
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#32
(22-Mar-2015, 03:51)MountainGuy Wrote: Apologies but I have a neophyte question. Since I've not used any room correction whether via hardware or software, I realize that I can't grasp all of what each of your posts mean as I would need the hardware/software in had and actually try it to get the whole picture. 


But in short here are my neophyte question based on the fact that if I do get a Devialet system, I would be running the music off my Windows 8.1 laptop with a CD player attached.  

1. My understanding is that Devialet apparently does not plan to incorporate room correction capability in their systems.  Correct? 

2. However, aftermarket correction can be accomplished upstream of the Devialet? 

3. And this correction can be done via software or hardware.  Is this correct or must I get some type of hardware such as DSpeaker Antimode or miniDSP hardware?  

4. Is there a list somewhere of the credible room correction options?  And any sense if there are some that are generally accepted as being the most effective? 

And yes, I already do have some room treatment items though I've not fully utilized them.  My room is a small 11x13 feet room so it is a challenge.  I like balanced but deep bass extension for acoustic music which gives a realistic foundation. 

The all in one unit and SAM capability of the Devialet is very attractive.  

Thanks in advance for any help in understanding a bit more about room correction for a neophyte. 

Thanks again!
MtnGuy 


 
thumb5 is spot on in his comments.

Dirac has the problem that you can not use it's filter in a separate convolver. In other words you can't use a Dirac filter with Brutefir or the convolver in JRiver for example.

I use Audiolense for measurement and filter creation and I use the filters with both JRiver and Brutefir. For JRiver the filters can be used either directly in in the playback chain or with the JRiver DLNA (UPnP) server. For Brutefir I use BrutefirDrc, a plugin for Logitech Media Server.

There is quite a steep learning curve with all the room correction solutions. Dirac tries to make it easy and succeeds to a certain extent, but in the process they have limited flexibility by locking you in to playback only from the PC you have the application installed on. I never play music directly from a PC so this would not work for me. Dirac is compatible with miniDSP, but I believe this solution is limited in sample rate to 48kHz or maybe it is 96kHz. Anyway it will not handle 176.4 and 192kHz properly, i.e. without resampling.
The best would obviously be if Devialet has a convolver in the DSP of the amplifiers. That is where such processing belong. As with SAM. SAM would be rather difficult to handle both for users and Devialet if it was not integrated into the DSP/ADH core the way it is.
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Netgear Ultra 2+ NAS::LMS on Intel NUC with Linux::BrutefirDRC::Audiolense::Mutec MC-3+USB::microRendu::LPS-1::250 Pro::Monitor Audio MA201 (thoroughly rebuilt)
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#33
So, I decided to jump on the Room Correction bandwagon, having reached the point where it seemed like my only hope for a nice sound in my current lounge.

Having taken delivery of a UMIK-1 during the week, and borrowed a mic stand from a friends studio yesterday, I had a skip-read the Dirac Live manual today and then got to work.

Apart from what seemed like a conspiracy against me getting decent measurements - howling winds, noisy planes, kids screaming outside, forgetting to turn off Devialet EQ(!) - I finally got a complete and useable set and made my first filter.

I've been playing Roon through the Dirac Audio Processor for a while now, and initially it's impressive.

I pretty much left the output curve as per the Dirac default proposal, and I like what I get.  Toggling it on and off is both subtle and obvious at the same time.  Hard to describe.  Everything just sounds clearer and more balanced, and less 'echoey', with some boomy bass gone, and a few things that were missing back.  Hard to say if its cured my brightness problem as I'm still back with my old speakers - but the current ones sound good.  Better for sure.

Will listen a bit more, and experiment with different curves, and then if all's well and I have time I'll throw the Facts back in and try it with those.

There were a few gotchas along the way, and a few things that could be better with the software (save those for another time), but all-in-all I'm really impressed - its exceeded my expectations by a long way.  The one thing I definitely didn't get using Dirac - which a few people (including dealers for new speakers) suggested I would - is any loss of 'magic', 'sparkle', 'life', or 'musicality'.  Nothing lost in those departments to my ears - nothing at all. The only thing that you do get is quite a drop in sound levels at the same Devialet volume, because Dirac keeps a lot spare for overhead to avoid clipping.  I'm not quite following the logic there, but …...

Perhaps with more critical long-term listening I'll find some faults, but so far all that it seems to do is EQ the sound to something thats really nice!

My room measurements:

   

To be continued…..

Roon lifetime > Mac mini > ethernet > µRendu | Paul Hynes SR3 > Intona > Curious USB link > Devialet 250 Pro > PMC fact.8
- London, UK -

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#34
Get the PMCs back in that rig.....you know you want to try them now Big Grin
Devialet 200 -- Melco N1A-- Sonus Faber Olympica 2 -- Tellurium Q Black Speaker Cable
Auralic Taurus MK2 Headphone Amp -- HifiMan HE1000 Headphones
Newcastle upon Tyne, England
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#35
(29-Nov-2015, 23:04)Womaz Wrote: Get the PMCs back in that rig.....you know you want to try them now  Big Grin

I really do!

For the sake of domestic bliss (having taken over the lounge for a fair bit of Sunday with the hifi making weird noises), I think I'll leave the Neats in place and enjoy the sound and experiment with some target curves to get a feel for what can be done and what sound I prefer.

Then I'll get the Facts back in - a bit of a faff due to spikes etc, but I REALLY want to see if it can work its magic, and without any obvious downsides.  And partly just to see if the measurements for the PMCs are obviously different to the Neats.

Because of SAM I suppose I'll have to do two sets of measurements at least - SAM ON and SAM OFF (a few 'in-between' SAMs would be needed if being anal about it).

If it works it will take the pressure off new speakers for sure, and perhaps I'll get a chance to hear what the Facts can really do Wink

I will probably still change them though - now I've been reminded what our previous (much smaller) speakers are like in situ, I'm really keen to find something a bit less 'dominating' to sit either end of the sofa. At least a bit less like 'walls' either end of the sofa.  Famous last words….

My main dislike about Dirac right now, is just that it doesn't seem to remember the output, so when the Devialet turns on I have to VNC into the headless server and re-select 'Devialet USB' as the output.  I hope this is just user error otherwise that will sadly rule out Dirac for me…..

Longer-term it may become annoying once Roon launches its RoonSpeakers endpoints, as I wouldn't be able to take advantage because I'd be stuck outputting from the machine that Dirac runs on.  But I'll worry about that later.

Of course, if it could be built into the Devialet itself…...

Meantime I really need a longer USB cable for the mic - bearing in mind what its designed for it seemed a bit stingy on the length - I could barely reach the listening position even with the Mac stretched away from the Devialet as far as it would go, so getting the additional points was tricky.  And my listening position is quite close by many standards….

Roon lifetime > Mac mini > ethernet > µRendu | Paul Hynes SR3 > Intona > Curious USB link > Devialet 250 Pro > PMC fact.8
- London, UK -

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#36
Wouldn't it be good if Devialet could package up the SAM lab into a consumer product and extend it for room correction purposes. Bespoke individual room correction including speakers for everyone who owns a Dev!
Devialet 220 Pro, TQ Black Mains & Ultra Black Speaker Cables, Naim Ovators S600, Sonore microRendu (Roon & HQP) with Uptone JS-2
TRNC (North Cyprus)
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#37
You can get a 10m usb cable(has a little powered hub thing at the end) for round $15 at any puter shop
Default target curve is a little light on the bass .. you need to hump it up a bit more....
As to the overhead, you can select the amount of attenuation required - -6db is pretty safe
Why you need this is to stop any boost going into digital clipping
I use the miniDSP hardware (ddrc 22 for dirac and openDRC di for acourate) as it is a much easier solution , allowing whatever front end an ui you like.
There is an astounding improvement using dirac.. you can try limiting the correction to under 300hz if you just want the bass corrected...
Roon/tidal- Squeezzebox touch - Dirac (DDRC-22 minidsp) > Dual mono D premiers> Vivid Audio Giya G1's - ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#38
Be careful of SAM .. I have run test tones thru speakers that are sammed and at their lower limits , there is a clucking sound as the limiter kicks in , I have found you have to limit SAM to small %'s (like 15%) to get rid of this
Try dirac with and without SAM ..
Roon/tidal- Squeezzebox touch - Dirac (DDRC-22 minidsp) > Dual mono D premiers> Vivid Audio Giya G1's - ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#39
(01-Dec-2015, 06:44)Rodney Gold Wrote: You can get a 10m usb cable(has a little powered hub thing at the end) for round $15 at any puter shop
Default target curve is a little light on the bass .. you need to hump it up a bit more....
As to the overhead, you can select the amount of attenuation required - -6db is pretty safe
Why you need this is to stop any boost going into digital clipping
I use the miniDSP hardware (ddrc 22 for dirac and openDRC di for acourate) as it is a much easier solution , allowing whatever front end an ui you like.
There is an astounding improvement using dirac.. you can try limiting the correction to under 300hz if you just want the bass corrected...

Thanks Rodney, all very helpful.

I'd just started looking at the curves and found a nice article on CA about 'best' shapes, along with some interesting info: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/...ystem-126/

I also checked out the miniDSP boxes, but apart from not really wanting to add another box, I found myself wishing that they had a 'USB in and USB/AES out' version, just so it would be compatible with anything in the future. They do look pretty good though, and I wasn't aware they could be used with something other than dirac.

I find I really like the result from Dirac.  Last night on a track from Barr Brothers I thought it sounded a bit odd and there was some distortion, but then the album is obviously distorted or compressed or something like that for effect, so its probably just emphasising what I don't usually hear as much.  

But the main reason that I would probably drop Dirac now, is the fact that it doesn't store the preferred output in its processor engine thing.  So that means every time the Devialet goes off, or power saves, or I change input, manual intervention would be required via VNC to reset the output.  As I have a headless server, this is a total no-go.  It would drive me mad and prevent others listening to the hifi.  I have to say Dirac support was pretty lame here, and essentially just said 'its not a bug, leave the amplifier on all the time'.  As I;'m on a Mac I'm a bit stuck as all the other options that come up as being good are PC only.

Urgh, this hobby can be frustrating at times…..

(Thanks for the SAM tip too - those sweeps are pretty loud so will be interesting to see if the Facts get protected - will start with SAM low and work my way up.  If I can be bothered to continue with Dirac that is!)

Roon lifetime > Mac mini > ethernet > µRendu | Paul Hynes SR3 > Intona > Curious USB link > Devialet 250 Pro > PMC fact.8
- London, UK -

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#40
Yes , the USB thing is a hassle..I would love it if the boxen had usb i/o
HOWEVER , they make a very nifty $35 usb to spdif and spdif to USB convertor(ministreamer)
You could use one in front of the openDRC or DDRC or even the nanodigi 2x8 or a 4x10hd or whatever
Its a bit of a kludge but it will work.. the cards are transparent ....

so usb out from pc - usb to spdif - whatever hardware - then just feed it into a spdif input on the 200
Roon/tidal- Squeezzebox touch - Dirac (DDRC-22 minidsp) > Dual mono D premiers> Vivid Audio Giya G1's - ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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