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How to guide: Setting the delay between the left and right speakers.
#1
Ok guys, so ive finally gotten this to a point and played around with enough programs that i think this will now be straight forward and easy enough for everyone.

This method gets your speakers PERFECT if you give it even 20 minutes.

I wrote a guide yesterday, but today i logged onto my configurator and went huh.. why the hell do i have a 2000us delay in my slave amplifier i dont remember setting that.. so im going to start my guide from scratch with both delays starting at 0us.

You are going to need 2 programs - Audacity (free program) and adobe audition (30 day trial is available) and 1 audio file

You can download the audio file that you will need for this guide here https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddvs7yrhqef56c...t.wav?dl=0

warning - PLEASE TAKE NOTE - warning - when you open the speaker settings in the configurator, there is a crossover/delay section for if the pre-out is enabled and if the pre-out is disabled. For all of us with pre-outs feedings subs - every time that you load this section up it will always open in the pre-out DISABLED section. you will change your settings, put the sd card back in your devialet and go why the heck didnt the settings change.. i did it so many times its not funny.

for reference - i set the delays for both the pre-out enabled and disabled.

First step - open audacity.

go to file - open then go to the dirac pulse file that you downloaded from this thread.

[Image: j6u874.jpg]

once you do that it will load the audio file. here you can see the dirac pulses i was talking about

[Image: 29vfn04.jpg]

So the top box is the left channel and the bottom is the right.

From here - open audition.

Once you are in, towards the bottom right there is transport controls. click on the record button and it will bring up some options. record at 192khz. it will start recording so just press stop.

Once you are ready, press the record button then quickly alt-tab to audacity and press the play button. once the clicks have both played alt-tab back to audition and press the stop button. You are going to look at the recorded section and think to yourself - why is it still blank - dont worry it recorded.

Where the transport controls are there are some magnifying glass icons. press the plus on the left until you can see the two pulses, then with your mouse click on the screen in between them so that you see the red marker line. after that press the magnefying glass on the right a few times. play around with your zooms and eventually you will see this:

[Image: 212sg89.jpg]

First you should zoom in on the first pulse. You will get to this:

There is a few things here you need to pay attention to.The size and shape of the waveform. Also note after the initial peak how much further down the pulse goes past where it started in the negative region. its about 2 rectangles exactly. And even though this is a positive peak, it has a small negative dip before the positive peak.

[Image: nvwmkk.jpg]

From here, unzoom on the first pulse and zoom right in on the second pulse and it will look like this:

[Image: erhrgj.jpg]

You can now see the second set of pulses.

The second pulse combines the negative and a positive pulse. If the negative pulse happened at the same time as the positive - they cancel each other out.

if the negative pulse happened at the same time as the negative "dip" after the positive peak in the first pulse it would strengthen the pulse and extend much further.

it did neither of those things so i know that the second negative dip is actually the negative pulse. it is smaller than the first positive pulse because it is being cancelled out by part of the positive pulse which you can see in the first photo.

Furthermore, this second pulse has retained the original shape of the first pulse - meaning it has a small dip, then a peak, then a dip, which means that the left channel definitely lags the right channel. if you take the measurement and the waveform is reversed so it has a small positive peak, then a big negative then another positive then the right channel is the speaker that is delayed naturally.

so you need to find the time difference between the positive pulse and the negative pulse.

You can see the peak of my positive pulse is about 3.971660 and the peak of the second negative pulse is about 3.971760. That equates to 100us delay that i need to add to the LEFT channel.

So i pull out the devialet card for my left amp, input a 100us delay on the sub pre-out, speaker pre-out enabled and pre-out disabled.

pop the card back in and one more time record the pulse from audacity. Here you can see how good your delay is. Here is the photo after changing the delay:

[Image: 2qjwswn.jpg]

Notice how the second pulse is about 1/3 the size of the first - that is because the negative and positive pulses are cancelling each other out! this is how you know your speakers are getting better.

However theres one important thing to take note of here. Instead of a small negative dip before a bigger positive peak i now have a small positive peak followed by a bigger negative peak! this means the delay i have set is a touch too long.

From here i pulled the slave card out and changed the delay from 100us to 90us and the next photo is the result

[Image: 4ijur4.jpg]

i got a little perfectionist after this point but i was a little let down Sad the configurator only lets you adjust the delay in increments of 5us.

So if i set the delay to 85us it was the left channel a little bit behind, set to 90 is the right channel thats a bit behind... i was trying to set the figure to 86, 87, 88 etc but it reverts to either 85 or 90 as soon as you click ok.

So thats it. im sorry about yesterdays screw up but honestly i dont expect much less from myself.

If any one has any questions feel free to ask and ill try help as much as i can.
Amp - Devialet 400 Speakers - vivid audio B1 Speaker cable - audioquest oak Power conditioner - furman SPR 16IE Source - audio PC with paul pang audio usb card v3 and paul pang red dual usb cable running through jplay. usb card powered by teddy pardo power supply Source 2 - line in from integra AV receiver (TV)
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#2
(28-Aug-2015, 12:16)completeluxury Wrote: Ok guys, so ive finally gotten this to a point and played around with enough programs that i think this will now be straight forward and easy enough for everyone.

This method gets your speakers PERFECT if you give it even 20 minutes.

You are going to need 2 programs - Audacity (free program) and adobe audition (30 day trial is available) and 1 audio file

You can download the audio file that you will need for this guide here https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddvs7yrhqef56c...t.wav?dl=0

So what i did was put a 9000us delay on the right channel (putting a big delay on the main channel means we can guarantee we are looking at the right pulses and know what channel they are in)

warning - PLEASE TAKE NOTE - warning - when you open the speaker settings in the configurator, there is a crossover/delay section for if the pre-out is enabled and if the pre-out is disabled. For all of us with pre-outs feedings subs - every time that you load this section up it will always open in the pre-out DISABLED section. you will change your settings, put the sd card back in your devialet and go why the heck didnt the settings change.. i did it so many times its not funny.

ok so now the master amp will be the delayed note by a serious amount so there can be no confusion.

First step - open audacity.

go to file - open then go to the dirac pulse file that you downloaded from this thread.

[Image: j6u874.jpg]

once you do that it will load the audio file. here you can see the dirac pulses i was talking about

[Image: 29vfn04.jpg]

So the top box is the left channel and the bottom is the right.

From here - open audition.

Once you are in, towards the bottom right there is transport controls. click on the record button and it will bring up some options. record at 192khz. it will start recording so just press stop.

Once you are ready, press the record button then quickly alt-tab to audacity and press the play button. once the clicks have both played alt-tab back to audition and press the stop button. You are going to look at the recorded section and think to yourself - why is it still blank - dont worry it recorded.

Where the transport controls are there are some magnifying glass icons. press the plus on the left until you can see the two pulses, then with your mouse click on the screen in between them so that you see the red marker line. after that press the magnefying glass on the right a few times. play around with your zooms and eventually you will see this:

[Image: 212sg89.jpg]

now put your cursor dead centre on the right pulse and keep magnefying until you get a screen like this: please note - my apologies on being a really bad mobile phone photographer and its too late for me to retake these photos.

[Image: eju2bq.jpg]

You can quite clearly see the 2 different pulses. The first pulse you see here will be the devialet slave unit. the second pulse is the master unit (we have a big delay on the master remember)

click your mouse on the first pulse like here and note the time. mine was "xx.373" then click your mouse on the next pulse like this:

[Image: 294ksjc.jpg]

and note the time. mine was "xx.380". we put a 9 micro second delay onto the master channel but here its telling me the actual delay is only 7ms. So from here you need to go to the configurator and take off that time from the delay. So i changed my delay from 9000us to 2000us and put the SD card back into the dev.

Now you need to do another recording of the pulse.

Now for your reference im going to show you this next photo. its the extremely zoomed in version of the FIRST pulse using the magnefying glass on the RIGHT hand side.

[Image: 2yug19t.jpg]

There is a few things here you need to pay attention to.The size and shape of the waveform. Also note after the initial peak how much further down the pulse goes past where it started in the negative region. its about 2 rectangles exactly.

From here, unzoom on the first pulse and zoom right in on the second pulse and it will look like this:

[Image: 1198d36.jpg]

So the first part of the pulse is identical to the first even in the negative section it has the same extra length after the peak.

The second pulse combines a negative and a positive pulse. If the negative pulse happened at the same time as the positive - they cancel each other out completely.

if the negative pulse happened at the same time as the negative "dip" in the first pulse it would strengthen the pulse and extend much further. it did neither of those things so i know that the second negative dip is actually the negative pulse. it is smaller than the first positive pulse because it is being cancelled out by part of the positive pulse which you can see in the first photo.

so you need to find the time difference between the positive pulse and the negative pulse. for me you can see there is about a 0.1 micro second difference. so i pull the main devialet card out, jump into the configurator and change the delay from 2000us to 1900us.

pop the card back in and one more time record the pulse from audacity. Here you can see how good your delay is. Here is the final photo from my install:

[Image: 148iqyo.jpg]

Notice how the second pulse is about 1/3 the size of the first - that is because the negative and positive pulses are cancelling each other out! this is how you know your speakers are properly timed.

Now if you really want you can keep making adjustments to your delay and get that second pulse even smaller - but people arrived home just as i got to this stage and to be honest i dont think i will go much further but that is up to each and every one of you.

If any one has any questions feel free to ask and ill try help as much as i can.

Looks like you've gone to a lot of trouble to set this up! Great job.
One question: sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but if you are sitting equidistant from your speakers, would you still need to do this? If so, what would the benefits be?

Cheers,

Al
Project Eperience X Pack with Ortofon Rondo Red MC, Oppo BDP 105D, 2 x Sonos Connect, QNAP HS251+ NAS with 2 X 6TB Western Digital Red, Mac 5K 32GB running Lifetime Roon, iPad Pro 12.9" for remote control.  Etalon Ethernet Isolator, Devialet 440 Pro CI, Sonus faber Olympica ll with Isoacoustics Gaia ll feet, Auralic Taurus Mkll headphone amp.Denon AH-D5000, Sennheiser HD600 and HD800 with Cardas cable,  Van Den Hul The First Ultimate and Crystal interconnects, Furutech power cables, GSP Audio Spatia speaker cable.
South Coast England
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#3
axel to point out - i sit equidistant from my speakers. there appears to be a delay inherent in the devialet 400/800 between the master and slave.

for a 200/250 this is irrelevant.

configuring your delays exactly right will provide perfect imaging and should increase clarity and coherency that little bit extra between the 2 channels.
Amp - Devialet 400 Speakers - vivid audio B1 Speaker cable - audioquest oak Power conditioner - furman SPR 16IE Source - audio PC with paul pang audio usb card v3 and paul pang red dual usb cable running through jplay. usb card powered by teddy pardo power supply Source 2 - line in from integra AV receiver (TV)
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#4
(28-Aug-2015, 13:20)completeluxury Wrote: axel to point out - i sit equidistant from my speakers. there appears to be a delay inherent in the devialet 400/800 between the master and slave.

for a 200/250 this is irrelevant.

configuring your delays exactly right will provide perfect imaging and should increase clarity and coherency that little bit extra between the 2 channels.

Ah, I see.  Thanks.
Project Eperience X Pack with Ortofon Rondo Red MC, Oppo BDP 105D, 2 x Sonos Connect, QNAP HS251+ NAS with 2 X 6TB Western Digital Red, Mac 5K 32GB running Lifetime Roon, iPad Pro 12.9" for remote control.  Etalon Ethernet Isolator, Devialet 440 Pro CI, Sonus faber Olympica ll with Isoacoustics Gaia ll feet, Auralic Taurus Mkll headphone amp.Denon AH-D5000, Sennheiser HD600 and HD800 with Cardas cable,  Van Den Hul The First Ultimate and Crystal interconnects, Furutech power cables, GSP Audio Spatia speaker cable.
South Coast England
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#5
(28-Aug-2015, 14:17)Axel Wrote:
(28-Aug-2015, 13:20)completeluxury Wrote: axel to point out - i sit equidistant from my speakers. there appears to be a delay inherent in the devialet 400/800 between the master and slave.

for a 200/250 this is irrelevant.

configuring your delays exactly right will provide perfect imaging and should increase clarity and coherency that little bit extra between the 2 channels.

Ah, I see.  Thanks.

Can you tell us what is the exact delay between the master and the slave in the standard 400 configuration? Thanks.
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#6
(28-Aug-2015, 13:20)completeluxury Wrote: axel to point out - i sit equidistant from my speakers. there appears to be a delay inherent in the devialet 400/800 between the master and slave.

for a 200/250 this is irrelevant.

configuring your delays exactly right will provide perfect imaging and should increase clarity and coherency that little bit extra between the 2 channels.

CL

Thanks for the detailed how-to. I guess it kind of debunks Devialets assertion that the slave and master are "perectly synced". Please let us know what changes if any you hear with the adjustments you made. Also, it may be worthwhile doing one more iteration and assessing whether further adjustments are audible. I see from your graphs that the second pulse is already down to -63 db, but one never knows.

Kerry
Laufer Teknik Memory Player - Atlas Mavros S/PDIF x 2 - Mutec MC-3+ USB Reclocker - Sablon Panatella BNC-SPDIF Digital Cable - LampizatOr Big 7 Tube DAC
Ayre Acoustics AX5-Twenty Amplifier - Rockport Technologies Cygnus Loudspeakers - Rel Gibralter G1 Six Pack Subs - Siltech Princess XLR - Ear to Ear Cables and PCs - Canada
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#7
Also, which input did you use for syncing the amps? Did you measure at the output of the amps or did you measure the speakers at the listening position? If at the listening position, what mic did you use?

Kerry
Laufer Teknik Memory Player - Atlas Mavros S/PDIF x 2 - Mutec MC-3+ USB Reclocker - Sablon Panatella BNC-SPDIF Digital Cable - LampizatOr Big 7 Tube DAC
Ayre Acoustics AX5-Twenty Amplifier - Rockport Technologies Cygnus Loudspeakers - Rel Gibralter G1 Six Pack Subs - Siltech Princess XLR - Ear to Ear Cables and PCs - Canada
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#8
microstrip - no i cant tell you the exact delay. i can only tell you the delay in my system. i dont know the micro details in everyone system that would effect everyone differently. hence this guide! my final delay was 1900us but i wouldnt expect that to be common across the board.

music - i used the USB input, because thats the only input i actually use. especially considering the programs that i used both operate on a computer. i dont think it would make much of a difference if you had other inputs though like if you used a usb to spdif conververter.

I measured the speakers at the listening position. we dont just want any delay that might be inherent in our system but across the whole range of components and speakers and room. for the final change in delay you can see how miniscule the change was (100us) but what a difference it made - going from 2 obvious pulses to cancelling each other out - its the exact timing that is really important.

i used the miniDSP umik-1. its fairly popular among hifi folk and relatively cheap.

i havent had a proper listen yet, and to be honest im not great at putting my thoughts about something that i hear into words. i know a lot of the regulars around here were glad to see the delay feature come out so that they could finally balance their systems so im hoping one of them can do the steps here and report on what they heard.
Amp - Devialet 400 Speakers - vivid audio B1 Speaker cable - audioquest oak Power conditioner - furman SPR 16IE Source - audio PC with paul pang audio usb card v3 and paul pang red dual usb cable running through jplay. usb card powered by teddy pardo power supply Source 2 - line in from integra AV receiver (TV)
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#9
(28-Aug-2015, 12:16)completeluxury Wrote: Ok guys, so ive finally gotten this to a point and played around with enough programs that i think this will now be straight forward and easy enough for everyone.
...
If any one has any questions feel free to ask and ill try help as much as i can.

Thanks, I found that very interesting. I must give it a go.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#10
(28-Aug-2015, 14:41)MusicFirst Wrote:
(28-Aug-2015, 13:20)completeluxury Wrote: axel to point out - i sit equidistant from my speakers. there appears to be a delay inherent in the devialet 400/800 between the master and slave.

for a 200/250 this is irrelevant.

configuring your delays exactly right will provide perfect imaging and should increase clarity and coherency that little bit extra between the 2 channels.

CL

Thanks for the detailed how-to.  I guess it kind of debunks Devialets assertion that the slave and master are "perectly synced".  Please let us know what changes if any you hear with the adjustments you made.  Also, it may be worthwhile doing one more iteration and assessing whether further adjustments are audible.  I see from your graphs that the second pulse is already down to -63 db, but one never knows.

Kerry

If the measurements were made with a microphone at a distance from the speakers rather than at the output terminals of the amplifier, I don't think you can reasonably conclude that (all of) the required delay correction is due to lack of master/slave synchronisation.

If you wanted to prove that it was, I think you'd have to repeat the measurements with the master in stereo mode and the microphone in exactly the same position, then perhaps you could say that any difference in delay between the two experiments was due to master/slave latency.  Ensuring that the microphone is in exactly the same position could be quite a significant source of error, I think.

[ETA: Or measure directly at the amplifier outputs, of course.]

A very interesting write-up in any case!

Ian
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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