Who are using vinyl as main source?

[PhilP]

... Riaa 1976 (I prefer the 1953 but my current Jelco arm will resonate due to the unfiltered set up of the 1953 ie 1953 goes under 20 Hz).

/Mike

Hi Mike, I am intrigued to know what you prefer about the 1953 curve?
AFAIK they are identical apart from the rumble cutoff and with a digital RIAA correction there is not even a risk of the extra phase shift due to the low filter.
No record player is capable of reproducing non-spurious output below ~ 2x Fn of the arm/cartridge so it is not as if you can be missing any genuine musical information below 20Hz.
cheers,
Frank

I hadn't realised there had been so much controversy about this but there's an interesting article in Stereophile which explains LP equalization in some detail here.

Apparently, the low frequency roll-off introduced by the 1976 revision actually starts above 20 Hz (its actually -3.0dB at 20 Hz, -1 dB at 40 Hz) and low frequency tonearm/cartridge resonance is not well-suppressed anyway because the roll-off is too gradual.

EDIT: The analogue high pass filter apparently introduces low frequency phase errors though, as f1eng says, if the equalization is done in the digital domain then these errors shouldn't be there. I don't know whether the digital equalization that Devialet use means the roll-off starts at 20Hz (i.e. 0 dB at 20Hz) or whether its -3dB at 20 Hz.

Whether the differences between the digitally applied 1953 and 1976 curves are audible I don't know but perhaps they could be. In a perfect system perhaps the 1953 curve would sound better on extreme organ music (lowest pedal note 16Hz) but I heard a demo of an Orbe/Devialet/SF Guarneri system in which the drive units flapped visibly all the time and someone who had heard a v similar system before said he couldn't understand why it sounded so "flat". It later turned out that RIAA curve used was the 1953 one. Presumably the performance of a drive unit must be negatively impacted if its having to cope with large, low-frequency, warp-induced movements?

[f1eng]

... Riaa 1976 (I prefer the 1953 but my current Jelco arm will resonate due to the unfiltered set up of the 1953 ie 1953 goes under 20 Hz).

/Mike

Hi Mike, I am intrigued to know what you prefer about the 1953 curve?
AFAIK they are identical apart from the rumble cutoff and with a digital RIAA correction there is not even a risk of the extra phase shift due to the low filter.
No record player is capable of reproducing non-spurious output below ~ 2x Fn of the arm/cartridge so it is not as if you can be missing any genuine musical information below 20Hz.
cheers,
Frank

I hadn't realised there had been so much controversy about this but there's an interesting article in Stereophile which explains LP equalization in some detail here.

Apparently, the low frequency roll-off introduced by the 1976 revision actually starts above 20 Hz (its actually -3.0dB at 20 Hz, -1 dB at 40 Hz) and low frequency tonearm/cartridge resonance is not well-suppressed anyway because the roll-off is too gradual.

EDIT: The high pass filter apparently also introduces low frequency phase errors.

Whether the differences between the 1953 and 1976 curves are audible I don't know but I guess they could be. In a perfect system perhaps the 1953 curve would sound better but I heard a demo of an Orbe/Devialet/SF Guarneri system in which the drive units flapped visibly all the time and someone who had heard a v similar system before said he couldn't understand why it sounded so "flat". It later turned out that RIAA curve used was the 1953 one. Presumably the performance of a drive unit must be negatively impacted if its having to cope with large, low-frequency, warp-induced movements?

I was a noise and vibration engineer working on the design of record players in the mid 70s before going motor racing full time so I am pretty familiar with all this, and sadly there is a lot of mis-information on the net about most aspects of record players from those who have discovered them since they returned to popularity.
The pickup is a seismic type of transducer, and all output from the cartridge at frequencies below about 2x the arm cartridge resonance are spurious. There can be a huge signal at the arm/cartridge resonance, since that is what is happening. It is best removed since it will move the loudspeaker cones away from their most linear range. The exact frequency at which the cartridge output is an accurate transduction of what is on the LP and the magnification at resonance are both dependant on the damping. More damping in the cartridge reduces the resonance peak but raises the lowest frequency at which accurate bass is produced. Damping in the arm is better but doesn't suit all cartridges.
The phase shift due to the high pass filter in the 1976 curve will be considerably less than the bass phase inaccuracy of most (non-SAMed ) speakers anyway, and with the digital RIAA correction in the Devialet there is no phase shift.

I shouldn't worry about -1dB at 40Hz either room effects will be massively more than this. The main thing is a substantial reduction at around 10 to 12Hz to stop the resonance getting to the speakers.

It is certainly true that some people like the 1953 curve more, but IMHO they just like more bass, and the fact that most of it is subsonic grunge doesn't seem to upset the "more bass is better" feeling.

Edit. The LP replay system is not capable of accurately reproducing the bass of an Organ. It can give an indication but not accuracy. OTOH the bass boost due to the arm/cartridge still being influenced by its resonance may be impressive even though not accurate.
In fact quite a few of the LP system "shortcomings" are enjoyed by many since most of them (but not all) are euphonic.

[PhilP]

I was a noise and vibration engineer working on the design of record players in the mid 70s before going motor racing full time so I am pretty familiar with all this, and sadly there is a lot of mis-information on the net about most aspects of record players from those who have discovered them since they returned to popularity.
The pickup is a seismic type of transducer, and all output from the cartridge at frequencies below about 2x the arm cartridge resonance are spurious. There can be a huge signal at the arm/cartridge resonance, since that is what is happening. It is best removed since it will move the loudspeaker cones away from their most linear range. The exact frequency at which the cartridge output is an accurate transduction of what is on the LP and the magnification at resonance are both dependant on the damping. More damping in the cartridge reduces the resonance peak but raises the lowest frequency at which accurate bass is produced. Damping in the arm is better but doesn't suit all cartridges.
The phase shift due to the high pass filter in the 1976 curve will be considerably less than the bass phase inaccuracy of most (non-SAMed ) speakers anyway, and with the digital RIAA correction in the Devialet there is no phase shift.

I shouldn't worry about -1dB at 40Hz either room effects will be massively more than this. The main thing is a substantial reduction at around 10 to 12Hz to stop the resonance getting to the speakers.

It is certainly true that some people like the 1953 curve more, but IMHO they just like more bass, and the fact that most of it is subsonic grunge doesn't seem to upset the "more bass is better" feeling.

Edit. The LP replay system is not capable of accurately reproducing the bass of an Organ. It can give an indication but not accuracy. OTOH the bass boost due to the arm/cartridge still being influenced by its resonance may be impressive even though not accurate.
In fact quite a few of the LP system "shortcomings" are enjoyed by many since most of them (but not all) are euphonic.

Well you've certainly had an extremely interesting working life

I've always enjoyed listening to vinyl but have only fairly recently found digital systems like Devialet which I can really enjoy. The shortcomings of many/most digital systems are usually not euphonic which is a big drawback of the technology. Simple things like 'dirty' mains or inadequate DACs seem to introduce an edge to the sound - particularly vocals - which I really hate. I've never experienced such problems with vinyl.

BTW, Whilst I was reading about RIAA curves etc I was surprised to see that the lowest note on a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand piano has a frequency of 16.5 Hz which a pianist presumably can't hear when he plays it. Also a tuner has to use an electronic device to check that it is in tune.

[f1eng]

Well you've certainly had an extremely interesting working life

I've always enjoyed listening to vinyl but have only fairly recently found digital systems like Devialet which I can really enjoy. The shortcomings of many/most digital systems are usually not euphonic which is a big drawback of the technology. Simple things like 'dirty' mains or inadequate DACs seem to introduce an edge to the sound - particularly vocals - which I really hate. I've never experienced such problems with vinyl.

BTW, Whilst I was reading about RIAA curves etc I was surprised to see that the lowest note on a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand piano has a frequency of 16.5 Hz which a pianist presumably can't hear when he plays it. Also a tuner has to use an electronic device to check that it is in tune.

My wife has a Steinway model B piano and its lowest note iirc is 31Hz, so a full octave different to the monster Bosendorfer! I wonder how big it is, the model B has a ~6 foot soundboard.

The thing with record players is that one can tune to taste!
Non-isolated turntables pick up more ambient vibration, which is heard as more bass in the lower registers and more ambience in the mid frequencies.
The lower SNR od LPs means music related noise is added which gives the impression of more spacious stereo.
Most pickup arms vibrate the cartridge body at middle frequencies adding a bit of reverb.
Even in really high end cartridges there is a big variation in the way the top octave is handled. Something like the £8k Techdas rolls off rapidly at 10kHz whereas at the other extreme the Rega Apheta has a big peak in the top octave, which can be altered a bit by loading but not eliminated. Sometimes this sort of characteristic is the technical by-product of a particular design strategy considered important by the designer, sometimes just a matter of taste in listening tests (which are risky in LP systems IME as so many things have an influence).
All pickup cartridges I know of add overtones to the music.
Now, again IME, the difference between digital kit is very much smaller than these, which means that with digital you are stuck with a sound fairly close to that chosen by the recording engineer (which often seems to be a bad thing ).
I know what you mean about harsh sounding digital kit. I have been surprised, in my system in the past, by some well regarded CD players being disappointing.
OTOH the Devialet seems completely transparent to me. I haven't had a disappointment now in 4ish years.

[Mikeeo]

Hi,

The LPS is heavy!
Max level 385 uV (no issues of bottoming out)
Load 0
Riaa 1976 (I prefer the 1953 but my current Jelco arm will resonate due to the unfiltered set up of the 1953 ie 1953 goes under 20 Hz).
Sampling 192 kHz (for me its better without added background noise but people on this forum have diverse experience).

looking forward to hear from you when LPS is installed.

/Mike

Hi Mike, I am intrigued to know what you prefer about the 1953 curve?
AFAIK they are identical apart from the rumble cutoff and with a digital RIAA correction there is not even a risk of the extra phase shift due to the low filter.
No record player is capable of reproducing non-spurious output below ~ 2x Fn of the arm/cartridge so it is not as if you can be missing any genuine musical information below 20Hz.
cheers,
Frank

Frank,

To my ears and wife we both think that the 1953 sound a wee bit more open and specially in the lower freq. Go figure!? Did with other persons listening to our system with the same results. Only exception to this is my hifi dealer who prefers the 1976

What ever reason this is how we experience this ie 'correctness', colorations etc.

/Mike

[PhilP]

My wife has a Steinway model B piano and its lowest note iirc is 31Hz, so a full octave different to the monster Bosendorfer! I wonder how big it is, the model B has a ~6 foot soundboard.

The thing with record players is that one can tune to taste!
Non-isolated turntables pick up more ambient vibration, which is heard as more bass in the lower registers and more ambience in the mid frequencies.
The lower SNR od LPs means music related noise is added which gives the impression of more spacious stereo.
Most pickup arms vibrate the cartridge body at middle frequencies adding a bit of reverb.
Even in really high end cartridges there is a big variation in the way the top octave is handled. Something like the £8k Techdas rolls off rapidly at 10kHz whereas at the other extreme the Rega Apheta has a big peak in the top octave, which can be altered a bit by loading but not eliminated. Sometimes this sort of characteristic is the technical by-product of a particular design strategy considered important by the designer, sometimes just a matter of taste in listening tests (which are risky in LP systems IME as so many things have an influence).
All pickup cartridges I know of add overtones to the music.
Now, again IME, the difference between digital kit is very much smaller than these, which means that with digital you are stuck with a sound fairly close to that chosen by the recording engineer (which often seems to be a bad thing ).
I know what you mean about harsh sounding digital kit. I have been surprised, in my system in the past, by some well regarded CD players being disappointing.
OTOH the Devialet seems completely transparent to me. I haven't had a disappointment now in 4ish years.

According to the Bosendorfer web-site the Imperial measures 9' 6" x 5' 9" and weighs well over half a ton. So a well-reinforced floor is required.

A frind of mine has a Naim CD555 which is by far the best CD player I've heard. Detailed but very natural and enjoyable to listen to.

I love the fact that turntables can be 'tuned' in the way you describe. I remember working out resonant frequencies etc when I first had an SME arm on a Thorens TD 160. Tuning digital kit is certainly a lot more tricky. For example, I was very surprised to find that power cables can make a significant difference to the sound of the Devialet. My local dealer suggested that I should try one and I really didn't expect to hear anything different from the stock cable but there was definitely a more airy and apparently detailed top end and tighter base. I was really surprised. I've been trying to understand how power cables can possibly sound different but there seems to be very little serious research in this area. it's frustrating to wade through the marketing b******t on most manufacturers' web-sites and there seems to be little of substance to be found there. Perhaps its just down to the effectiveness of the shielding and the contacts?

[chrish]

Soon as my cartridge turns up and I put it all together, vinyl is going to be my main source

Avid Acutus SP,
SME V
Benz LP-S
Devialet 250
Focal Diablo Utopias

Chrish,

Looking forward to what impedance settings you will go for as I have the LPS too. The recommended setting from Benz says high impedance but that didn't work at all for me. I had good response at 100-460 ohms settings. Currently I have it at 460 ohms.

Enjoy!

/Mike

Hi Mike. Ended up getting a really good deal on a Transfiguration Phoenix S, so I went that route instead. Was too good to pass up. Been fooling with the various settings, and at the moment I'm using 'high' for the impedance. Sounds best to me. Anything else is a little bright (although 460 ohms was pretty good also). Might be the cartridge bedding in though.

Got to say I'm really impressed with how good this turntable sounds on the Dev. So glad I don't have to purchase the external phono stage for the Avid. The phono stage is awesome on the Dev.

[Mikeeo]

Soon as my cartridge turns up and I put it all together, vinyl is going to be my main source

Avid Acutus SP,
SME V
Benz LP-S
Devialet 250
Focal Diablo Utopias

Chrish,

Looking forward to what impedance settings you will go for as I have the LPS too. The recommended setting from Benz says high impedance but that didn't work at all for me. I had good response at 100-460 ohms settings. Currently I have it at 460 ohms.

Enjoy!

/Mike

Hi Mike. Ended up getting a really good deal on a Transfiguration Phoenix S, so I went that route instead. Was too good to pass up. Been fooling with the various settings, and at the moment I'm using 'high' for the impedance. Sounds best to me. Anything else is a little bright (although 460 ohms was pretty good also). Might be the cartridge bedding in though.

Got to say I'm really impressed with how good this turntable sounds on the Dev. So glad I don't have to purchase the external phono stage for the Avid. The phono stage is awesome on the Dev.

Great! I heard these at occasions and like them (can't remember which ones). These are very good trackers.
Well as you can see from my settings these are really not what the manufacturer recommends so it may be beneficial to play around with the settings just as you have been doing.

Keep on enjoying/Mike

[samurai7595]

I'm using a Rega RP10 turntable with Rega Apheta 2 moving-coil cart and I couldn't be happier.

I only got my Devialet 200 about a week ago, so right not I'm still using a Rega Aria MC/MM phono stage (great match for the Apheta 2 cart). I will eventually be experimenting with the Devialet internal phono stage in the hopes that I can get rid of the external phono stage.

[brit]

I'm using a Rega RP10 turntable with Rega Apheta 2 moving-coil cart and I couldn't be happier.

I only got my Devialet 200 about a week ago, so right not I'm still using a Rega Aria MC/MM phono stage (great match for the Apheta 2 cart).  I will eventually be experimenting with the Devialet internal phono stage in the hopes that I can get rid of the external phono stage.

Hi samurai7595,

You should try the Devialet Phono stage - it is a straightforward update to the configurator - it is a very good phono stage. I use my Voyd Turntable wth Audio Technica OC9 MC Cartridge direct into my Dev's phono stage with excellent results.

David