last mile ethernet

[Jwg1749]

I'm quite sure the differences with the AQ Diamond ethernet are real, I don't know why but it does make quite an improvement compared to even the runner up Vodka.

Luckily the 0.75m version is long enough in my situation as I fully agree the prices are astronomical. It's the usual 80/20 (or 95/5 if you'd like) rule that applies here. To get the last few percent of attainable performance you have to pay an uneven, most of the times 'nonlinear' amount of money.

Hi Antoine,
Re. the differences with AQ Diamond ethernet, have you considered using the method I proposed on Divasson's thread, i.e. recording samples via the Dev's USB out and nulling them using Audiodiffmaker?
Once I'm settled in the new house, I plan to run a batch of tests of this kind.
Matt

[Antoine]

Hi Matt,

Personally I don't think differences will show up in such a test. Better said I believe the digital data transport to be bit perfect and the cause of the differences to lie more on an analog 'interference' level. I posted a link to a discussion I think explains this. See: http://devialetchat.com/Thread-Interesti...15#pid3715

[philoouu]

Cable influence, especially in the digital arena, remains a contentious issue even within the relative calmness of the DevialetChat forum.

What I continue to find unbelievable is the justification for charging astronomic prices at the "top end". And the multipliers which seem to apply.

For example, with many of us using 5m lengths for router to Devialet connection, the OP's Audioquest Diamond costs around £3,000 which is 55 times the price of Audioquest's base Pearl offering at £55, that in turn 10 times the price of stock CAT6 cable.

By comparison, looking at "real" hardware, the Devialet 800 at £21,000 is around 20 times the price of a base offering for pre/power/phono/dac/wifi from Arcam, being the FMJ A19 and the Airdac. I'm content that each of those probably retail at around ten times the component and manufacturing cost, but in the case of the Diamond I bet that multiplier is one hundred or more.

At the forthcoming Devialet Guildford event it would be interesting to get the Devialet guys to comment on ethernet properties from a technical viewpoint and get the Guildford guys to run some blind tests to see if differences are readily discerned.

Hello
I completely agree with you but you cannot force people/high-end journalist to do blind tests.... and make them stop "dreaming" too.
When I am reading all those posts I am impressed by many people spending not only money but lots of time tweaking/testing different parts (not only cables but also batteries, hardware/software, file format, hard disk, rack…) to fine-tune their system. And their technical knowledge is pretty high too. But for those people it is a real pleasure not only to listen music but also to test/tweak and constantly add/remove a piece in their system to improve it. Whether the improvement is only a perception or a reality is another question, but the passion to test/tweak/improve is a reality. At least this is how I feel about many posts I can read… and I am very happy to read them and learn from their experiences. There is obviously a lot of subjectivity in what people think but again some people have earing capabilities/musical education different/better than other so this is why we have a forum to talk about it.
With Devialet as a one box system, there are less tweaks to do since there is theoretically nothing to add except the speakers and one cable from the computer (USB) or the router (Lan cable) to listen music (recommended by Devialet). At least this is how I use my Devialet (I wish the Wifi would be flawless... and no cable would be necessary).
But still I wish there would be more blind tests listening sessions too….
Regards
philoouu

[warpeon]

Cable influence, especially in the digital arena, remains a contentious issue even within the relative calmness of the DevialetChat forum.

What I continue to find unbelievable is the justification for charging astronomic prices at the "top end". And the multipliers which seem to apply.

For example, with many of us using 5m lengths for router to Devialet connection, the OP's Audioquest Diamond costs around £3,000 which is 55 times the price of Audioquest's base Pearl offering at £55, that in turn 10 times the price of stock CAT6 cable.

By comparison, looking at "real" hardware, the Devialet 800 at £21,000 is around 20 times the price of a base offering for pre/power/phono/dac/wifi from Arcam, being the FMJ A19 and the Airdac. I'm content that each of those probably retail at around ten times the component and manufacturing cost, but in the case of the Diamond I bet that multiplier is one hundred or more.

At the forthcoming Devialet Guildford event it would be interesting to get the Devialet guys to comment on ethernet properties from a technical viewpoint and get the Guildford guys to run some blind tests to see if differences are readily discerned.

Hello
I completely agree with you but you cannot force people/high-end journalist to do blind tests.... and make them stop "dreaming" too.
When I am reading all those posts I am impressed by many people spending not only money but lots of time tweaking/testing different parts (not only cables but also batteries, hardware/software, file format, hard disk, rack…) to fine-tune their system. And their technical knowledge is pretty high too. But for those people it is a real pleasure not only to listen music but also to test/tweak and constantly add/remove a piece in their system to improve it. Whether the improvement is only a perception or a reality is another question, but the passion to test/tweak/improve is a reality. At least this is how I feel about many posts I can read… and I am very happy to read them and learn from their experiences. There is obviously a lot of subjectivity in what people think but again some people have earing capabilities/musical education different/better than other so this is why we have a forum to talk about it.
With Devialet as a one box system, there are less tweaks to do since there is theoretically nothing to add except the speakers and one cable from the computer (USB) or the router (Lan cable) to listen music (recommended by Devialet). At least this is how I use my Devialet (I wish the Wifi would be flawless... and no cable would be necessary).
But still I wish there would be more blind tests listening sessions too….
Regards
philoouu

Which ethernet cable is more important - i) between devialet and router, ii) between router and computer, iii) NAS and router? Anyone can offer their thoughts?

[Jwg1749]

Hi Matt,

Personally I don't think differences will show up in such a test. Better said I believe the digital data transport to be bit perfect and the cause of the differences to lie more on an analog 'interference' level. I posted a link to a discussion I think explains this. See: http://devialetchat.com/Thread-Interesti...15#pid3715

Cheers, Antoine.
Your explanation makes good sense to me, but I don't see why it wouldn't show up in Audiodiffmaker, which is designed precisely for situations like this.
Anyway, I'll stop banging on about it until I've done some tests myself!
Matt

[GuillaumeB]

Hello
I completely agree with you but you cannot force people/high-end journalist to do blind tests.... and make them stop "dreaming" too.
When I am reading all those posts I am impressed by many people spending not only money but lots of time tweaking/testing different parts (not only cables but also batteries, hardware/software, file format, hard disk, rack…) to fine-tune their system. And their technical knowledge is pretty high too. But for those people it is a real pleasure not only to listen music but also to test/tweak and constantly add/remove a piece in their system to improve it. Whether the improvement is only a perception or a reality is another question, but the passion to test/tweak/improve is a reality. At least this is how I feel about many posts I can read… and I am very happy to read them and learn from their experiences. There is obviously a lot of subjectivity in what people think but again some people have earing capabilities/musical education different/better than other so this is why we have a forum to talk about it.
With Devialet as a one box system, there are less tweaks to do since there is theoretically nothing to add except the speakers and one cable from the computer (USB) or the router (Lan cable) to listen music (recommended by Devialet). At least this is how I use my Devialet (I wish the Wifi would be flawless... and no cable would be necessary).
But still I wish there would be more blind tests listening sessions too….
Regards
philoouu

Great post!

Cheers

Guillaume

[Rufus McDufus]

Agree. What some people tend to misunderstand is that many of us actaully enjoy this fiddling. Sure there's a big element of psychological difference involved but then again speaking for myself my system is miles better than it was even a year ago and many of the changes have been of the 'woo-woo' variety. The grounding boxes in particular were responsible for fixing my mainly 'broken' & hugely variable power supply.
I'm a system engineer by trade (when I get my lazy ass out to work!) and have networking qualifications so I was hugely sceptical about the benefits of network cables making a difference. To be honest I still find it hard to determine a difference on my own system but on a hugely transparent and high resolution system like Guillaume's I can hear a difference with different cables. It should just be '1s & 0s' but we're talking a mixture of digital and analogue devices here (unlike an entirely digital system) with a massively sensitive analogue components, or rather massively sensitive measuring devices monitoring the analogue components (our ears). It shouldn't make a difference but it appears to me that it does.

Oh, and the simplicity of Devialet and reducing the box count was what attracted me to it in the first place. Much easier to isolate problems or test new bits of equipment or cables even. In my case it made it much easier to fix that 'broken' power supply too.

Hello
I completely agree with you but you cannot force people/high-end journalist to do blind tests.... and make them stop "dreaming" too.
When I am reading all those posts I am impressed by many people spending not only money but lots of time tweaking/testing different parts (not only cables but also batteries, hardware/software, file format, hard disk, rack…) to fine-tune their system. And their technical knowledge is pretty high too. But for those people it is a real pleasure not only to listen music but also to test/tweak and constantly add/remove a piece in their system to improve it. Whether the improvement is only a perception or a reality is another question, but the passion to test/tweak/improve is a reality. At least this is how I feel about many posts I can read… and I am very happy to read them and learn from their experiences. There is obviously a lot of subjectivity in what people think but again some people have earing capabilities/musical education different/better than other so this is why we have a forum to talk about it.
With Devialet as a one box system, there are less tweaks to do since there is theoretically nothing to add except the speakers and one cable from the computer (USB) or the router (Lan cable) to listen music (recommended by Devialet). At least this is how I use my Devialet (I wish the Wifi would be flawless... and no cable would be necessary).
But still I wish there would be more blind tests listening sessions too….
Regards
philoouu

Great post!

Cheers

Guillaume

[Antoine]

Hi Matt,

Personally I don't think differences will show up in such a test. Better said I believe the digital data transport to be bit perfect and the cause of the differences to lie more on an analog 'interference' level. I posted a link to a discussion I think explains this. See: http://devialetchat.com/Thread-Interesti...15#pid3715

Cheers, Antoine.
Your explanation makes good sense to me, but I don't see why it wouldn't show up in Audiodiffmaker, which is designed precisely for situations like this.
Anyway, I'll stop banging on about it until I've done some tests myself!
Matt

Hi Matt, I don't think it'll show up in a comparison like that because with Audiodiffmaker you're only looking at digital side of things so the 1's and 0's.

As I believe the data transport to be bit-perfect and the cause of differences to lie on the analog level you'd have to measure that part as well with high-end analog measuring equipment. Of course I don't have this type of equipment so I'd have to rely on my ears.

And I don't mean any disrespect by saying this but to be honest I'm not really interested in these type of measurements, if it works and I can hear a positive improvement (whether that's because of my brain through suggestion or my ears doesn't really matter to me) and enjoy the music more then that's enough for me.

[Jwg1749]

Hi Matt, I don't think it'll show up in a comparison like that because with Audiodiffmaker you're only looking at digital side of things so the 1's and 0's.

As I believe the data transport to be bit-perfect and the cause of differences to lie on the analog level you'd have to measure that part as well with high-end analog measuring equipment. Of course I don't have this type of equipment so I'd have to rely on my ears.

And I don't mean any disrespect by saying this but to be honest I'm not really interested in these type of measurements, if it works and I can hear a positive improvement (whether that's because of my brain through suggestion or my ears doesn't really matter to me) and enjoy the music more then that's enough for me.

Antoine,
That's fair enough, and I certainly don't want to begin some crazy crusade to persuade people to measure every darn thing.
I was assuming it would be possible to use the Devialet's USB output to record a musical signal on to a PC, in the same way as one would use it to digitize vinyl. In which case it should show up the effects of any changes made upstream, of whatever nature. So if, for the sake of argument, you had a hellishly noisy PSU in your NAS, that noise would show up in the recorded file. But maybe that's not the case.
Cheers,
Matt

[Antoine]

Hi Matt, no problem of course, it is a discussion forum after all. When you record the ethernet AIR input using the USB output of the Devialet the music signal remains in the digital domain where I believe no differences should be seen if the conversion from ethernet to USB inside the Devialet itself is of course also bit-perfect. Again I believe differences are most likely the result of analog signal interference that perhaps induces jitter or dirties the ground planes affecting the D/A process or analog output signal out of the DAC into the amplifier circuits and maybe even these amplifier circuits themselves.