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The Experts Empirical Knowledge Part 2
#1
Sometime back in the past I ever wondered why some (only a few) people/customers didn't get the point when tuning an audio system or swaping components on a system. And I think it's the most discussed case in all forums dealing with distinction on audio components.

I'd like to provide an explanation by using analogies, because I strongly feel that everybody has a different perception on the details of listening.
Fact is, there are some variables refering to our listening abilities. To mention just a few, there are: innate imperfections, injuries, decline of hearing due to loud working conditions, decline by age etc. These are the physical ones.

And there's one other I found while I went with some customers over the years. Some of them having highend audio system for years but never cultivated their listening skills. Most of them came into tuning of their system quiet late. But me having worked with them while tuning their systems, for say 1or2 years, on each meeting I saw them developing this high differentiation with each tuning step and their capability to distinguish more and more details of the music presented via tuninig. They weren't able to do that before. It needs some kind of training/trainer to improve your listening skills. Some people have to be nudged to the improvements the tuning recently made, because their attention is on a complete different subject. Though it may not apply to everybody.

But here is an analogy to better understand my point.
Have a look at the picture in the link below or search for 3D pictures (Stereopics) like that. To see the 3D-effect you have to alter your viewing. Don't focus on the screen. Try to focus a virtual point, looking just through the picture, may be 20meters or more far away in the distance. It's like bringing your eyes view from an angled focus to parallel view. You have to relax, you have to practice it. And then all of a sudden you see the 3D-element in the picture. It's like zooming in. It gets a bit brighter and it's kind of strange. I call it virtual focus. If you try even harder to hold this VF...poofff...it's gone and your focus is on the screen, you don't see the picture anymore.

New 3D-Pic

Sorry for bad link before.

For me it's a good analogy for some people not hearing the differences in cables, component feet (vibration control) etc. Their focus is on another subject/dimension so they don't get the point. But if nudged to the point, all of a sudden they see (hear) the whole picture. And from then on it gets easier and easier up to the point that it is natural for them to hear that way.

There is a little story I can tell. Back in the past we had a customer coming to the store who wanted to buy new speakers. It turned out he made his living being a conductor. My first thought was, "Hey must be an easy job. The man is very skilled in music, perfect hearing I assumed". We had him listening to some speakers like the ML Summit X, Audioplan Konzert and the like. At first I was impressed because he had a very good analogy describing the ML electrostacic speaker performing like an airbrush system making fringe like edging around the acoustical events.
The other speakers were more focused to him. So we compared some of them.
As we changed the speakers, and sure some are more precise than others, we (the dealers) could hear a piano more transparent, more differentiated in every aspect etc. but he could not hear it even when nudged to it. He heard the timing of the violins, heard the musicians playing (nearly) perfectly together, heard the technics of the musicians. He heard all the things important to him as conductor to guide an orchestra. So at this point I was the bonehead and knew nothing of the things he was focusing on. I didn't even know what to listen for. So at last he bought a speaker suitable to his skills. What's better than that?


What's the tweak here? If you don't hear differences when you tune your system, get a friend, a dealer or else who is more skilled, who exactly knows what the enhencement with this kind of tuning is, pointing you to the improvements. Sometimes it's like the 3D-pictures. When you suddenly hear the improvements, it's like zooming into the music hearing even more details. It's fun.



JM2C
gui


It's funny so many people simply trusting their eyes, not knowing that their ears are a just so much more sensitive sense, they don't trust Rolleyes
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#2
Sorry for the bad link on the 3D-Pic before. Fixed.

gui
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#3
That is all based on the premise that there is an absolute truth as to what your hifi should sound like , and there is actually no reference , dealer , trained ear , whatever has no idea of what the mastering engineer heard.
But I agree when it comes to training your hearing.. one becomes selectively "deaf" when evaluating stuff , fixated on whats important to you.. like bass.. I and a lot of folk I know will ignore the rest of a speakers performance if the bass isnt right.
but all we can hope for is the elusive eargasm when listening , to be emotionally moved and elevate the performance to an event.. a suspension of the fact we are listening to hifi.
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch  > Trinnov St2 or DIRAC (minidsp ddrc-22d) > Dual mono D premiers > Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits  ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#4
(15-Feb-2016, 13:05)Rodney Gold Wrote: ... and there is actually no reference , dealer , trained ear , whatever has no idea of what the mastering engineer heard.

I heard the argument with the mastering engineer very often while working in the shop. I always said, that we will never know what this engineer heard and that it's not important in the first place.

Did you ever come to the experience to hear livemusic but not seeing it because it being out of view?

One example.
Me and my family were walking through a 5floor-high mall last christmas which was open to all floors in its center and there was christmasmusic (yeah, what else?) playing in the background all through the mall.
When we came in, and I was aware of it in the first, I instantly knew that it was live music. I said to my wife and my two kids, "Hey hear it, they are playing live somewhere in here". My kids are to young to make this distinction in sound, but my wife could have done it. But...she didn't instead asking me "are you sure?"
For me it was obvious in the very first second. And for sure as we went up 2floors there was a music teacher playing saxophone together with 5 teenagers all playing different instruments.

In fact the problem for all of us is, that we don't have the accruate vocabulary to describe the typical character of live music...but there is no question when you are trained to hear these typical characters, besides hearing live music more frequently and therefore being trained by experience, you are able to hear the distinctive improvements when tuning your system.
It doesn't matter being it changing the speakers, cables, bases, puks or anything. If the performance is only getting that tiny little bit nearer to live music (or an instrument sounding more like playing live in front of you) you know it in just a second.

And I don't need a double blind for that. For me it's like my eyes seeing a car on the street knowing it's a car there. And your ears are even more sensitive in differentiation than your eyes.

You know what? It would be great benefit to do some double blind test with real blind persons. No offending, please! They should be more expert than anyone of us when it comes to hearing.

A blind person has most probably established a decent sense in hearing. It's a survival for her/him. I think it is even scientifically prooven that someone not born blind, then getting blind, is developing a far better hearing over time, isn't it?

So why is it in all this posts around hifi-forums that some people challange other people having a better hearing than themselves? May it be vanity?

gui
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#5
Alpha male stuff.. mine is bigger/better/more expensive than yours..it's the internet , everyone is a muse and a guru ..
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch  > Trinnov St2 or DIRAC (minidsp ddrc-22d) > Dual mono D premiers > Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits  ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#6
(15-Feb-2016, 16:18)Rodney Gold Wrote: Alpha male stuff.. mine is bigger/better/more expensive than yours..it's the internet , everyone is a muse and a guru ..

You're refering to this... "So why is it in all this posts around hifi-forums that some people challange other people having a better hearing than themselves?"
...and hopefully not the rest of my post Rolleyes ?
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#7
Hehe .. yes that ...
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch  > Trinnov St2 or DIRAC (minidsp ddrc-22d) > Dual mono D premiers > Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits  ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#8
Well I am a "mastering engineer", though an amateur one and have made many recordings over the last 50 years.
My aural memory is not long term though so, in terms of knowing what the recording session sounded like I found that comparing the microphone feed to the recorder output was the most informative.
It is also the case that what we actually like the sound of isn't necessarily high fidelity to the input.
I massively enjoyed Apogee Diva loudspeakers for many years, as long as I wasn't playing one of my own recordings... When I did, the fact that it added a lot of my listening room acoustics bothered me, whereas with other peoples recordings the extra apparent stereo was most enjoyable.

Once one has made one's own recordings the real importance of the various links in the chain is much clearer than if one has not.
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#9
(16-Feb-2016, 13:46)f1eng Wrote: I massively enjoyed Apogee Diva loudspeakers for many years, as long as I wasn't playing one of my own recordings... When I did, the fact that it added a lot of my listening room acoustics bothered me, whereas with other peoples recordings the extra apparent stereo was most enjoyable.

So your aural memory isn't that bad, isn't it? At least it maintains the live music for some days in your brain, perhaps even months?

We are in consent that once you heard the live recording you observe the difference when playing the recorded on your audio system quiet easily?!
Then it's the very same thing if you try to refine your system, you know instantly if it was for the better or the worse.

I think, it's the point of view that's important.

When refining a system I don't care how the saxophone originaly sounded when it was recorded in the studio at this special event. I can't know it anyway.
I do only compare the sound of "some" saxophones I heard live and compare the special characteristics they have in common to the sound of the audio system.
Is it closer, the refinement was for the better. Often it's a time-phase-thing, so I can check back that I'm right if the corporeal of the instruments/singer also improved.

gui
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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