Highest Possible Sound Quality from iTunes

[Confused]

On the other hand a full computer can run ROON, Dirac, and a lot of other things which music servers can't.

I take the point, but this situation is changing I think.  For example, the Antipodes music server is now being revised such that it can run full Roon, plus there are already products like Computer Audio Designs CAD CAT.  OK, I know the CAD CAT is basically a 'optimised' PC, but most music servers are Linux based, so it's a subtle point.  The Antopodes move to incorporating full Roon functionality is very interesting because the Antipodes is Linux based.  If you then consider that Melco, Aurender and many more are also Linux based, how will all this develop?

[Confused]

Also, it occurs to me that a simple solution would be to use a Mac of some sort, maybe with SSD, linear PSU, then USB to a Mutec MC3+USB, XLR to the Devialet.  I'm sure this would work (although F1eng had issues with a Mac + Mutec combo), but I am not sure if it would match a Melco or similar.  (does anyone know how good the SQ might be with this set up?)

But is there a better way?  What would be the ultimate solution?

I think this is completely the right approach to take. You know that iTunes is the interface that you would like to use (for a variety of reasons previously discussed on this forum) and therefore any attempt at optimising it and its output will yield some decent benefits. The fact that another non-iTunes solution exists out there at a comparable price or with better SQ is moot quite frankly. 

I just don't think you're going to be happy with either a Melco or Aurender, certainly not the Melco with the current range of OpenHome control points. Of course we still don't know what the Melco app will look like but I'd be very surprised if it included in its first iteration support for track ratings, for instance. Of course the Aurender is worth exploring, but again I don't think you will have the flexibility and control (and comfort level!) of iTunes. Or JRiver for that matter.

I think control points are quite personal things, and if iTunes suits you, then just focus on getting the best sound from that. There is plenty to do!

Guillaume

Wise words Guillaume!  But you do need to understand that my little brain needs to process ALL aspects of this one.  The control point is very important, but so is sound quality.  Would I compromise SQ for the control point?  Maybe, but I would need to fully understand by how much.  (which would require knowing how a tricked up Mac + Melco would sound vs say an N1Z, not an easy thing to establish)  Plus there are so many options, for example the CAD CAT could run iTunes, Roon, or anything else you wanted.  Although iTunes will always be compromised in the Windows environment.  (I did try iTunes / JPlay a while back, and got stuck with the ISO bridge or whatever it was, ran out of time, never bothered with it again, I must have another go at this one)

Then we have news that the Antipodes music server will run the Linux Roon 1.2, and one thing Roon does very nicely is pick up iTunes playlists on start up.  So you could use iTunes to mange your library, smart playlists or whatever saved as iTunes playlists, and your Roon equipped ultimate SQ music server picks them up, all good.

(It's no wonder I'm confused!!)

[mobaer]

Also, it occurs to me that a simple solution would be to use a Mac of some sort, maybe with SSD, linear PSU, then USB to a Mutec MC3+USB, XLR to the Devialet.  I'm sure this would work (although F1eng had issues with a Mac + Mutec combo), but I am not sure if it would match a Melco or similar.  (does anyone know how good the SQ might be with this set up?)

But is there a better way?  What would be the ultimate solution?

I use exactly the setup, that you describe (except the linear PSU). Introducing the Mutec between Mac Mini and Devialet has increased sound quality a lot. By re-clocking the signal from the Mac it reduces jitter, and transfers the cleaned signal via XLR to the Devialet. For me it enhanced the three-dimensional representation.
I started using Audirvana instead of iTunes, because Audirvana offers the possibility to configure upsampling depending on the sampling frequency of the source material. I use this feature for upsampling my music in CD quality to 176,4 kHz. As a result to me strings sound a little more natural (just to give an example).
I would prefer Roon over Audirvana because of its user interface, but unfortunately Roon doesn't have an integrated upsampling engine.

In theory the ultimate solution should be AIR in bit perfect mode!
In that case you do not have to worry about jitter, because data transfer is asynchroneous and buffered. No clocking issues can occur. However, AIR doesn't work reliable in my case.
If the Devialet had a clock input you could synchronize Mutec and Devialet and by this eliminate jitter. The result should be the same as with AIR. Sadly, Devialet does not offer that option.

In a perfect world I would use Roon with upsampling feature (under development as stated by Roon Labs) and AIR in bit perfect mode. Until this comes true, I go the way that you described and I am quite happy with it.

[GuillaumeB]

Also, it occurs to me that a simple solution would be to use a Mac of some sort, maybe with SSD, linear PSU, then USB to a Mutec MC3+USB, XLR to the Devialet.  I'm sure this would work (although F1eng had issues with a Mac + Mutec combo), but I am not sure if it would match a Melco or similar.  (does anyone know how good the SQ might be with this set up?)

But is there a better way?  What would be the ultimate solution?

I think this is completely the right approach to take. You know that iTunes is the interface that you would like to use (for a variety of reasons previously discussed on this forum) and therefore any attempt at optimising it and its output will yield some decent benefits. The fact that another non-iTunes solution exists out there at a comparable price or with better SQ is moot quite frankly. 

I just don't think you're going to be happy with either a Melco or Aurender, certainly not the Melco with the current range of OpenHome control points. Of course we still don't know what the Melco app will look like but I'd be very surprised if it included in its first iteration support for track ratings, for instance. Of course the Aurender is worth exploring, but again I don't think you will have the flexibility and control (and comfort level!) of iTunes. Or JRiver for that matter.

I think control points are quite personal things, and if iTunes suits you, then just focus on getting the best sound from that. There is plenty to do!

Guillaume

Wise words Guillaume!  But you do need to understand that my little brain needs to process ALL aspects of this one.  The control point is very important, but so is sound quality.  Would I compromise SQ for the control point?  Maybe, but I would need to fully understand by how much.  (which would require knowing how a tricked up Mac + Melco would sound vs say an N1Z, not an easy thing to establish)  Plus there are so many options, for example the CAD CAT could run iTunes, Roon, or anything else you wanted.  Although iTunes will always be compromised in the Windows environment.  (I did try iTunes / JPlay a while back, and got stuck with the ISO bridge or whatever it was, ran out of time, never bothered with it again, I must have another go at this one)

Then we have news that the Antipodes music server will run the Linux Roon 1.2, and one thing Roon does very nicely is pick up iTunes playlists on start up.  So you could use iTunes to mange your library, smart playlists or whatever saved as iTunes playlists, and your Roon equipped ultimate SQ music server picks them up, all good.

(It's no wonder I'm confused!!)

Well if you are happy with ROON then I think one of the best contenders will be the Antipodes DX running the new Antipodes 2 software. Why? Because it's an all-in-one solution with every component optimised (and with the "noisy" LAN taken out of the equation), it includes ROON core so no need for a PC or Mac in the signal chain. There was a slight issue around the USB output and compatibility with the Devialet and I'm not sure if that has been resolved yet.

My guess is that the N1Z will still be the best SQ-wise but it's a bit more expensive plus we have no idea what Melco are up to quite frankly, ROON-wise at least! These guys are VERY good software developers however so I expect their new CP to be decently functional on launch. 

CAD CAT is very expensive is it not? I'm sure it's bloody good though. Would be good to get a few more details from OAC here...

With so many options I can imagine it is very difficult to get off the fence...

Guillaume

[Confused]

Well I am planning to listen to a few options - X100 vs CAD CAT vs N1Z vs N1ZH vs N10 anyone ..... I think getting some idea of the SQ deltas with this kind of kit will help my thought process. (I'll need to be in OAC's good books to get though this lot!!)

EDIT: Might as well do the N1A too while I'm at it ...

[GuillaumeB]

CAD CAT 

How much is it? I can't seem to find any pricing

Guillaume

[Confused]

CAD CAT 

How much is it? I can't seem to find any pricing

Guillaume

I'm not sure currently, it was a little north of £5k last time I checked.

[Confused]

Oh and yes, I agree the Antipodes looks very tempting indeed, zero UK dealers though .....

[GuillaumeB]

CAD CAT 

How much is it? I can't seem to find any pricing

Guillaume

I'm not sure currently, it was a little north of £5k last time I checked.

Just checked with Jon: £6300 for 1TB model and £6800 for 2TB...

That's squarely in N1Z territory....

Guillaume

[Hifi_swlon]

Well I am planning to listen to a few options - X100 vs CAD CAT vs N1Z vs N1ZH vs N10 anyone .....  I think getting some idea of the SQ deltas with this kind of kit will help my thought process.  (I'll need to be in OAC's good books to get though this lot!!)

EDIT:  Might as well do the N1A too while I'm at it ...

But Confused, of all your demo options, only one will allow you to use iTunes?

Personally, I really think this will be the year of some really interesting new products, and the start of the realisation that a digital music server doesn't have to cost £6K to sound good.

That could of course be wishful thinking, and I'm fully prepared to be back here before long eating those words. I just believe the current thinking - that of separating things into two boxes, a computer so you can do what you want with it, connected to a lightweight 'network renderer' than is solely responsible for handing the final bits over to the DAC - makes complete logical sense. Trying to build dedicated hardware from scratch just to host a music playback UI and at the same time avoid a computer (like an Aurender) will always be expensive. Trying to turn to general purpose PC and OS that was never design for audio will always be expensive too. Moving bits from one place to another in a way that doesn't do any harm, should be absolutely simple for a dedicated device. Thats my take on it anyway.

When I demo'd the Aurender N100 I liked it - I thought it sounded really good actually and looked tasty - but I didn't like the iOS control Ap or having to use software to scan NAS files - and from that point on I would be annoyed by it and feel frustrated being locked into Aurenders product cycles. So I couldn't go through with it. When I read about Melco and its 3rd party control Apps I know I'd be the same. Roon isn't perfect I know, but I love its UI more than anything else I've tried, and it combines streaming. And because it sits on a computer, if it goes south or something better comes out, I can install that. I also like there idea I can tinker with Dirac or whatever, which again, would be more difficult on custom hardware.

In a sense we're at a very interesting point in time. CD was simple, and worked, and was pretty obvious. I loved that about it. A stack of discs, and a play button. Simple. But could I ever find anything, no. Take them away when travelling, no. Play them at work or in the car, no. Skip between tracks on albums and make playlists, no. Rate, them ,etc etc etc yadda yadda.
Computer audio and streamed audio offers us nearly everything, but not necessarily all in the right boxes or software that talks together in the way that we want, and the bewildering array of options makes it all a bit 'pioneering'. Luxury problems. And exciting times in a frustrating sort of way.

Good luck! Please post your findings…..