Experimenting with speaker/listening position

[MusicLover]

Hi,

Just wanted to share my recent positive experience repositioning the speakers, more specifically their "toe in".

About two months ago I decided to place the speakers closer to each other, so I moved them by about 5 to 7 cms closer to the center. I adjusted the toe in and after a couple of weeks of listening I was sure to have improved on the previous set up, not by a great deal, but nonetheless, enough to be noticeable.

Three weeks ago I thought about playing with their toe in so I started by positioning them parallel to the side walls (no toe in). Now, this is a position I've never seen anywhere, not even in the manual.
I thought I would be losing some time, but preferred to start from a more "neutral" position and modify by small increments progressively.
My very first impression was surprisingly very positive, which isn't normally the case. I thought of leaving them like this (no toe in) for a few days to digest the change. After about ten very happy days like that I thought of coming back to the original amount of toe in to see what would happen. The immediate effect was negative; a clear degradation of the sound scene, specially with regards to pin-point of instruments/voices, soundstage depth and overall realism. So, after another couple of days, I started to gradually bring them back to no toe in, leaving them for a few days in each position to gauge the change. In the end, I am still surprised that no toe in seems to work (by far) best in their current position with regards to side and back walls.

I would measure this little experiment as an improvement as noticeable and positive as when I added the Hi-Cap DR (an improved power supply for those not familiar) to my Supernait in my previous Naim set-up, which says a lot.

So be sure to experiment, even minimally, because small changes in position like this may help you to get closer to reaching your system's full potential. After all, the most significant aspect that influences sound quality is room interaction.

I may have stated the obvious but still hope my experience helps someone!

[Bartype]

That it does :-)

I'll go experiment myself with this!

[Axel]

The user manual for my ProAc speakers says to toe them in so that both point to the listening position. I too started to play around and also found that I preferred no toe in. To me, the soundstage seems wider with the sound coming from outside the speaker boundaries. Toeing them in makes the soundstage collapse inwards. My old KEF Reference 1.2s manual stated no toe in.

[Pim]

I'm not sure that it's wise of manufacturers to make recommendations on toe in. Every room is different and every room will need the speakers to be set up differently. And then there's personal taste. Some want an incredible soundstage, some more warmth. And with different amplification the sound signature changes too.

So the best advice; Experiment 

[Dimi Pap]

Hi,

Just wanted to share my recent positive experience repositioning the speakers, more specifically their "toe in".

About two months ago I decided to place the speakers closer to each other, so I moved them by about 5 to 7 cms closer to the center. I adjusted the toe in and after a couple of weeks of listening I was sure to have improved on the previous set up, not by a great deal, but nonetheless, enough to be noticeable.

Three weeks ago I thought about playing with their toe in so I started by positioning them parallel to the side walls (no toe in). Now, this is a position I've never seen anywhere, not even in the manual.
I thought I would be losing some time, but preferred to start from a more "neutral" position and modify by small increments progressively.
My very first impression was surprisingly very positive, which isn't normally the case. I thought of leaving them like this (no toe in) for a few days to digest the change. After about ten very happy days like that I thought of coming back to the original amount of toe in to see what would happen. The immediate effect was negative; a clear degradation of the sound scene, specially with regards to pin-point of instruments/voices, soundstage depth and overall realism. So, after another couple of days, I started to gradually bring them back to no toe in, leaving them for a few days in each position to gauge the change. In the end, I am still surprised that no toe in seems to work (by far) best in their current position with regards to side and back walls.

I would measure this little experiment as an improvement as noticeable and positive as when I added the Hi-Cap DR (an improved power supply for those not familiar) to my Supernait in my previous Naim set-up, which says a lot.

So be sure to experiment, even minimally, because small changes in position like this may help you to get closer to reaching your system's full potential. After all, the most significant aspect that influences sound quality is room interaction.

I may have stated the obvious but still hope my experience helps someone!

What are dimensions of your room?What is the distance between the Speakers?

[MusicLover]

Hi,

Just wanted to share my recent positive experience repositioning the speakers, more specifically their "toe in".

About two months ago I decided to place the speakers closer to each other, so I moved them by about 5 to 7 cms closer to the center. I adjusted the toe in and after a couple of weeks of listening I was sure to have improved on the previous set up, not by a great deal, but nonetheless, enough to be noticeable.

Three weeks ago I thought about playing with their toe in so I started by positioning them parallel to the side walls (no toe in). Now, this is a position I've never seen anywhere, not even in the manual.
I thought I would be losing some time, but preferred to start from a more "neutral" position and modify by small increments progressively.
My very first impression was surprisingly very positive, which isn't normally the case. I thought of leaving them like this (no toe in) for a few days to digest the change. After about ten very happy days like that I thought of coming back to the original amount of toe in to see what would happen. The immediate effect was negative; a clear degradation of the sound scene, specially with regards to pin-point of instruments/voices, soundstage depth and overall realism. So, after another couple of days, I started to gradually bring them back to no toe in, leaving them for a few days in each position to gauge the change. In the end, I am still surprised that no toe in seems to work (by far) best in their current position with regards to side and back walls.

I would measure this little experiment as an improvement as noticeable and positive as when I added the Hi-Cap DR (an improved power supply for those not familiar) to my Supernait in my previous Naim set-up, which says a lot.

So be sure to experiment, even minimally, because small changes in position like this may help you to get closer to reaching your system's full potential. After all, the most significant aspect that influences sound quality is room interaction.

I may have stated the obvious but still hope my experience helps someone!

What are dimensions of your room?What is the distance between the Speakers?

The room is 3 x 4 mts (width x lenth), but it's open behind the listening position to the kitchen and as you face the speakers the right wall is open also to a corridor. I don't think shapewise it can get any more irregular. Distance between the speakers is 1.8 mts and the ceiling is made of wood.

[Damon]

I don't fuss about with my system much at all, but speaker positioning is an easy way to change or adjust the way a system sounds, at least for those of us that are careful listeners, and have speakers that can actually be moved. I was speaking with Terry London, who writes for home theater review dot com and he recommended that I try tipping my Lawrence Audio speakers forward; I did so by about 20mm/ 3/4" and it made a very nice difference.

Perhaps the improvement is because my speakers are sort of stuffed in among the other debris in the living room but I think also because my central listening chair is quite low- lower than many typical LR chairs. It may also be a function of the rear-firing ribbon tweeter this speaker has, so the tilt affects that reflected sound as well as the font-facing AMT tweeter.

Once adjusted  they just sit there, unmolested by me, and play on.

Interesting comparative note by DimiPap comparing the improvement to the addition of a Naim Hi-Cap.

[MusicLover]

@Axel: That's one of my findings too although in my case, regarding soundstage, it's depth that has improved the greatest, with also a great sense of instrument separation.

@Pim: I completely agree with you. I guess manufacturers recommend positioning based on a neutral room (hardly the case)...

@Damon: It was actually me who mentioned about the Hi-Cap. I still remember very well the huge improvement it brought to the Supernait. Suddenly the music just sounded more real and alive. A bit like looking at a painting with or without glasses!
The position change you are referring to is rake, isn't it? I did experiment with it sometime ago in order to get a more "airy" sound. Basically you are lowering or rising the tweeter in order reach a balance between an airy and a bright presentation. For this experiment best albums are those with mainly female voices some say.

I find speaker positioning and room acoustics a fascinating subject as small changes can make such a difference...

[Damon]

Oops, misread the stacked quotes. I had Naim equipment before as well, but did not add any power supplies. My speakers have quite a rake on them already, so I think the tilt does more to change the distance from my ear to the tweeter than it does to change the height of the tweeter. But as you say, the positioning does change things.

I think room acoustics are also very important in refining the way a system sounds in a room. Might be some threads on this topic, but I know there have been many posts about it.