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New Pro - SQ for classical music
#61
(18-Nov-2016, 13:18)GuillaumeB Wrote: Gosh chaps aren't we digressing a little? I know a lot of these themes are intertwined but still.... this seems to have turned into a discussion about the merits of SAM (as interesting as it is, perhaps this convo should be moved to a SAM thread?).

Classical music on the PRO is the post subject right?

Quote:Arcam Wrote: 

When I suspected issues with a recording, I turned to Qobuz to compare. The result was often in favour of Qobuz, but not always. Most striking was when Qobuz had a remastered version.


Here are the records that definitely did not play well:
  • Bach partitas by Milstein: the highs tend to be clipped (CD), the Qobuz version is mildly better
  • Chopin ballade #1 by Samson François: both CD and Qobuz sounded terrible, a lot of digital artifacts
  • Verdi Requiem by Giulini: the voices tend to merge in a distasteful sound, even on Qobuz
  • Ysaye sonatas by Papavrami: the violon causes quite listening fatigue
  • Wagner Parsifal by Karajan: I remember the trombones on LP to be sublime and so did the press think at the time. Definitely missing some chromatism in the CD/Qobuz version
  • Debussy melodies by Dietschy/Cassard: the voice tends to be a bit harsh. I've heard it sound sublime in some system in the past (ah! yes, the past is always better, isn't it?)

Arcam: can we get more precise details of some of these recordings so that we can try them out and give you feedback? 

Guillaume

Sorry, I was referring

@arcam
'What I don't quite understand is why SAM (seems to have) made such a difference in sound quality, making it more analog, less digital. Signal crosstalk that amplified the digital artefacts?'

@Guillaume
Can you then move this to a new thread. I don't know how to do this.

Thanks, gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#62
(18-Nov-2016, 09:43)Vivialet Wrote: I tried most of the RC software: Dirac, Acourate, parametric EQ's in jRiver. All of them help to solve room problems, but all of them also degrade the SQ. Dirac the most, Acourate is better but not perfect. The only room correction software that seems to work without any negative impact is the RoomEQ from Mathaudio (free for foobar). SAM is also slightly degrading SQ but can help a lot on some speakers.
On my Giya G2 it is not used anymore since I have the pro.
The best option is to use passive room correction if possible. And I think if the SQ with the Devialet is bad there are other problems like LS/room mismatch, cabling, source. Solving such problems with an active correction system is not a good idea imho...

A lot to say about this as I disagree... But another thread Wink !

Regards
Upgraded Mac Mini - Audirvana - Dirac plugin - Air3 - D250 pro - Thiel CS 3.7
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#63
(18-Nov-2016, 13:27)yabaVR Wrote:
[... Wrote:pid='52880' dateline='1479471531']
@Guillaume
Can you then move this to a new thread. I don't know how to do this.

Thanks, gui

(18-Nov-2016, 18:02)Inox Wrote:
(18-Nov-2016, 09:43)Vivialet Wrote: I tried most of the RC software: Dirac, Acourate, parametric EQ's in jRiver. All of them help to solve room problems, but all of them also degrade the SQ. Dirac the most, Acourate is better but not perfect. The only room correction software that seems to work without any negative impact is the RoomEQ from Mathaudio (free for foobar). SAM is also slightly degrading SQ but can help a lot on some speakers.
On my Giya G2 it is not used anymore since I have the pro.
The best option is to use passive room correction if possible. And I think if the SQ with the Devialet is bad there are other problems like LS/room mismatch, cabling, source. Solving such problems with an active correction system is not a good idea imho...

A lot to say about this as I disagree... But another thread Wink !

Regards

+1 for an other thread and a lot to debate.

Jean-Marie
MacBook Retina -> Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 120 -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#64
(18-Nov-2016, 13:18)GuillaumeB Wrote: Arcam: can we get more precise details of some of these recordings so that we can try them out and give you feedback? 

Now that I've gone all digital, the CDs are all packed in the attic and I cannot easily give you a CD reference number. Here are Amazon pointers though:
If you PM me, I can probably send you some tracks.
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#65
(17-Nov-2016, 10:11)yabaVR Wrote:
(16-Nov-2016, 23:55)arcam Wrote: What I don't quite understand is why SAM (seems to have) made such a difference in sound quality, making it more analog, less digital. Signal crosstalk that amplified the digital artefacts?

To be more clear. If SAM helps you to get a more analogue sound, perfect. But have in mind the losses or better try the above test (SAM on/off) if there are any for you.

Thanks for the detail post @yabaVR. At the risk of disgressing, shall I say that I flabbergastedly discovered that my D's power socket was connected to a Devolo powerline adapter, remnant of a previous setup ? I immediately unplugged the Devolo and... suddenly the sound had become a little more precise.

I now need to try with SAM off.

But, where this post is not off topic, is why SAM would make Milstein's violon suddently less digital, especially since there is little bass.
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#66
(21-Nov-2016, 19:58)arcam Wrote:
(17-Nov-2016, 10:11)yabaVR Wrote:
(16-Nov-2016, 23:55)arcam Wrote: What I don't quite understand is why SAM (seems to have) made such a difference in sound quality, making it more analog, less digital. Signal crosstalk that amplified the digital artefacts?

To be more clear. If SAM helps you to get a more analogue sound, perfect. But have in mind the losses or better try the above test (SAM on/off) if there are any for you.

Thanks for the detail post @yabaVR. At the risk of disgressing, shall I say that I flabbergastedly discovered that my D's power socket was connected to a Devolo powerline adapter, remnant of a previous setup ? I immediately unplugged the Devolo and... suddenly the sound had become a little more precise.

I now need to try with SAM off.

But, where this post is not off topic, is why SAM would make Milstein's violon suddently less digital, especially since there is little bass.
 
You've got it.
At least one cause of poor sound. This powerline adapters produce a horrible amount of trash on the powerline. If you use some others in your house, I know it's uncomfortable, please try and pull them ALL out of the powersockets and listen again to your D. These poweradapters might be the main cause to your 'digital' sound no matter where they are pluged into the powerline. They are all connected when layed on the same phase (hence functioning  Tongue  ). Even if you got a poweradapter pluged in upstairs, it is still on the same powerline and polluting your Devialet with digital trash.

That was my point with the pics. If you post some of your system we can more easily see the flaws in it and help you out of your 'digital disaster'  Wink .

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#67
(21-Nov-2016, 19:58)arcam Wrote: But, where this post is not off topic, is why SAM would make Milstein's violon suddently less digital, especially since there is little bass.

#56

'Maybe because of loosing these details you also loose the phaseshifts of these details thus your brain has to work less and you're experiencing the result as sounding more analogue?'

The fussed (out of phase) details are cut off by SAM hence your brain does not have to fix these issues and calms down -> it's 'feeling' more analogue.

Instead the target should be: Get a better/improve (jitterless) source to work with your D and (perhaps) we have to fix other flaws in your system.
Then you will experience the further details (SAM off) with Milstein's violin in pure bliss Big Grin .

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
Reply
#68
(22-Nov-2016, 12:24)yabaVR Wrote:
(21-Nov-2016, 19:58)arcam Wrote:
(17-Nov-2016, 10:11)yabaVR Wrote: To be more clear. If SAM helps you to get a more analogue sound, perfect. But have in mind the losses or better try the above test (SAM on/off) if there are any for you.

Thanks for the detail post @yabaVR. At the risk of disgressing, shall I say that I flabbergastedly discovered that my D's power socket was connected to a Devolo powerline adapter, remnant of a previous setup ? I immediately unplugged the Devolo and... suddenly the sound had become a little more precise.

I now need to try with SAM off.

But, where this post is not off topic, is why SAM would make Milstein's violon suddently less digital, especially since there is little bass.
 
You've got it.
At least one cause of poor sound. This powerline adapters produce a horrible amount of trash on the powerline. If you use some others in your house, I know it's uncomfortable, please try and pull them ALL out of the powersockets and listen again to your D. These poweradapters might be the main cause to your 'digital' sound no matter where they are pluged into the powerline. They are all connected when layed on the same phase (hence functioning  Tongue  ). Even if you got a poweradapter pluged in upstairs, it is still on the same powerline and polluting your Devialet with digital trash.

That was my point with the pics. If you post some of your system we can more easily see the flaws in it and help you out of your 'digital disaster'  Wink .

gui

But isn't the Devialet "Digital trash" anyway?
UK kit - Garrard 401 slate plinth - Dynavector DV 507 Mk2 - DH1 cartridge - 2012 Mac Mini - 64GB SSD + 1 TB HD - Roonserver - MCRU PSU - microRendu - Mutec MC3+USB - Black Rhodium ARIA DCT AES/EBU - Devialet 1000Pro - Blue Jeans Speaker Cable (1 metre each side) - Magico S5

Spain kit - 2012 Mac Mini - 64GB SSD + 1 TB HD - Roonserver - microRendu - Devialet D120 - Ergo IX speakers
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#69
Classical music anyone?  Angel

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

O d'A no.63, Absolare Integrated Signature, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-six, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Transparent Ref XL digital cables, Transparent XL Gen 5 speaker cables, Ansuz Diamond Darkz, Shunyata mains cable prototypes, Shunyata Denali D6000/S, Shunyata Venom RCA, Audioquest Diamond Ethernet, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Paul Pang Audiophile switch w/ MCRU LPS,  sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD & MCRU LPS
UK
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#70
(22-Nov-2016, 14:17)GuillaumeB Wrote: Classical music anyone?  Angel

Guillaume

Hey Guillaume, got it (even the first time)!

But his own words post #1:
"Of course, ... I am not talking about recording studio acoustics or primitive recording technology or deteriorated tapes, but about decoding artifacts.
When it works, my Devialet feels like a perfect analog amp. But when I fed it with one of these recordings, it feels like a mumbo-jumbo of digital artifacts. Or a bad, pixelated digital amp.
Has anyone not see this as well? I am on 10.0.5."

He recognizes these digital artifacts with old Classical music but for me this is not the cause of the problem (it could be every bad recording). Even his old classical recordings will sound good enough to enjoy them, when his system is set up right...or am I wrong here? It's a technical problem with bad recordings jointly with his system-chain.

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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