Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Acoustical Voodoo
#11
I hope I will not be banned for the words I'm going to say  Confused  hence it is 180° the experience of the thread owner.

Every time I've heard a digital room corrected music signal I had the analogy of a 'Loudness For 3D-Appearance' feeling in my mind. During the first minutes it is astonishing how much better a voice or instrument is placed on the virtual stage in front of me. But, and it's a big but for me, if I listen closer for me it's like cutting out all the single soundobjects out of the original recorded 3D-Matrix and placing them onto a completly artificial virtual stage (matrix). It seems as if all the recorded room/stage informations in the music were taken and puzzled together with the plan of the designer of that room correction element.

When I think of it in a theoretical way the feelings I have appear logic to me. Correct me, if I'm totally wrong with the following.

We all strive for a Bit-Perfect reproduction of an original recording. I would describe it as a 3D-Matrix similar to a hologram but made of sound.

So the ingredients are: two channels, time, frequency, volume. If there's something else, even better. These ingredients are woven together (during recording) in a manner they are absolut dependent on each other to reproduce the original 3D-Matrix in front of us (stereo). If 'something' falls apart the whole 3D-Matrix would get holes or diffuse sound sensations because this 'something' isn't there with it's frequency, at the right time and with the right volume in respect to the other sound objects. I hope you get my point.

It's all 3D in the end.

Now we room correct the music signal. We take time, frequencies and volume and cut with the 'help' of this three right through the 3D-Matrix of the recording (bit-perfection...aaah... gone). And, if we take a frequency (e.g. 90Hz -6db) we suck this frequency out of every sound object in this 3D-Matrix hence we can not assign it solely to the contrabass which resonates with our room-modes and our nerves.

Am I getting this the wrong?

For me, every time I hear room correction, its benefits go at the expense of natural sound, natural room information, homogeneous mapping of the original recording, vibrating air between instruments, flow of the music and at least of the music itself.


My thoughts are, if you want your listening room to be better sounding, you have to alter the room.
If you want your speaker to have less phase shifting, deeper bass, you can not simply go SAM and be done because you are altering the original music signal. You have to alter positioning, placing, anything with the speaker itself (perhaps vend them).

Is there anyone with me?

gui
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
Reply
#12
(15-Nov-2016, 12:33)baconbrain Wrote: I recently purchased a Trinnov ST2 Hifi wanting to explore the wonderful world of room correction. Given my sub-optimal listening room setup, I was quite convinced that the device would be nothing but beneficial.

Let me also say up front, that the Trinnov is an incredibly powerful (and complex) piece of equipment. If you are someone who loves to tinker with this stuff (like myself), then it has almost endless possibilities.

So, I did a a couple of calibration runs and sat down to listen to the results and it sounded really ..... different. Undecided

When going through the 5 system defined presets resulting from the calibration, each gave me insight (or earsight) into sound signatures of my system that I had truly never heard before. Some of them positive, others not so.

The biggest surprise (and main reason for my post) came after I toggled the optimizer on/off (on the fly). As I listened to my system without any correction, the sound suddenly seemed ..... stale.  Confused

My expectations were that yes, it might not sound as good as optimized setup, but I did not expect that it would sound as bad as it did.

What had I been listening to over the last months/years? I had the previous perception that my system sounded anything but ... stale. How did it happen that over the course of time my mind/ears became so convinced that I was having a really good listening experience? After the A/B comparison it was evident that I was not.   Huh

Whatever the reason, I can't explain it. Perhaps it is just Acoustical Voodoo ...

I had exactly the same experience after the implementation of Dirac. First, there was a big relief that I got rid of my room modes. But when I switched Dirac off I realised that not only the "boooms" have vanished, but all bass is tighter and straiter forward now than without room correction, the overall SQ has improved as well. I do not want to (I can't!) listen to my music without room correction any more. BIG Problem: My vinyl collection, because the signal from my record player of course cannot be corrected by Dirac. Therefore I am considering to buy a Trinnov ST2, but would wait a while, maybe (sic!) Devialet will keep their promises and integrate RC into the experts. Because the Trinnov is not exactly cheap. But will Devialet RC (Roon RC would be worthless for me: vinyl) have the same quality as Dirac/Trinnov?

I would be very curious how your T+A G 2000 R goes together with the Trinnov ST2!
Devialet 220 pro CI - Surface 4 pro / Dirac / Roon / AIR - Kuzma Stabi S / Hana SL - PMC Fact 8
Reply
#13
(16-Nov-2016, 14:04)yabaVR Wrote: I hope I will not be banned for the words I'm going to say  Confused  hence it is 180° the experience of the thread owner...

Is there anyone with me?

Ban him! ..... just kidding  Smile

Actually, I am with you and had anticipated some type of a response from a "purist" point of view.

Completely agree that the best approach would be to fix the room and not the signal, but for me that is not an option.

Our living room = my listening space, and the first lady (who has put up with me for over 30 years) has certain tolerance limits when it comes to optimal speaker placement, acoustic panels, etc.

So I guess I am trying to make the best out of the situation, but of course,  recognizing the fact that there is no such thing as an electronic sound absorber.  Angel
Kii Three Speakers | JL Audio Fathom Subwoofer  | KEF LS50 Speakers | Samsung 850 Soundbar
Innuos Statement | Trinnov Altitude 32 | PS Audio Stellar S300 Amp | T+A HA 200 Headphone Amplifier | Meze Empyrean Headphones
Sean Jacobs DC-3 Custom Build LPS | Roon Core DIY Server | SOtM sNH-10G Modded Switch | Oppo UDP-205 Blu-Ray/SACD Player
T+A G 2000 R Turntable | DS Audio E1 Optical Stylus | Gordian Lab 12 Power Conditioner | Artesania Audio Rack
Reply
#14
(16-Nov-2016, 14:45)Ron McKernan Wrote: I would be very curious how your T+A G 2000 R goes together with the Trinnov ST2!

Ah, another vinyl fan!  Big Grin

Since my 2000 R does not have the integrated phono preamp (was using the Devialet), I purchased a standalone MX Vinyl from Musical Fidelity which I just finished setting up last night. Looking forward to some listening time this weekend. Will keep you posted.
Kii Three Speakers | JL Audio Fathom Subwoofer  | KEF LS50 Speakers | Samsung 850 Soundbar
Innuos Statement | Trinnov Altitude 32 | PS Audio Stellar S300 Amp | T+A HA 200 Headphone Amplifier | Meze Empyrean Headphones
Sean Jacobs DC-3 Custom Build LPS | Roon Core DIY Server | SOtM sNH-10G Modded Switch | Oppo UDP-205 Blu-Ray/SACD Player
T+A G 2000 R Turntable | DS Audio E1 Optical Stylus | Gordian Lab 12 Power Conditioner | Artesania Audio Rack
Reply
#15
(18-Nov-2016, 15:30)baconbrain Wrote:
(16-Nov-2016, 14:04)yabaVR Wrote: I hope I will not be banned for the words I'm going to say  Confused  hence it is 180° the experience of the thread owner...

Is there anyone with me?

Ban him! ..... just kidding  Smile

Actually, I am with you and had anticipated some type of a response from a "purist" point of view.

Completely agree that the best approach would be to fix the room and not the signal, but for me that is not an option.

Our living room = my listening space, and the first lady (who has put up with me for over 30 years) has certain tolerance limits when it comes to optimal speaker placement, acoustic panels, etc.

So I guess I am trying to make the best out of the situation, but of course,  recognizing the fact that there is no such thing as an electronic sound absorber.  Angel

At least there is one... Tongue

For me it's the same with the living room. My wife would go mad on big speakers...so I went 2 floors upstairs but even that will not be of continuance I apprehend Confused .

So you have to 'trinnov' as I see in your signature. I only auditioned the trinnov 2 times on a fair so far. Is it a big loss of the room mapping of the original recording?

gui
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
Reply
#16
(18-Nov-2016, 15:53)yabaVR Wrote: At least there is one... Tongue

For me it's the same with the living room. My wife would go mad on big speakers...so I went 2 floors upstairs but even that will not be of continuance I apprehend Confused .

So you have to 'trinnov' as I see in your signature. I only auditioned the trinnov 2 times on a fair so far. Is it a big loss of the room mapping of the original recording?

gui

That's a tough question to answer because I have never really heard the "original recording". Only how it plays back on my system.  Blush

My perception is that the Trinnov defiantly enhances the imaging of the sound-stage. The localization of the instruments and vocals is much clearer and defined. This is an attribute which I personally find appealing but realize it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Really recommend auditioning one at home if you have that possibility. Perhaps you have a local dealer who could make a house visit?  I was fortunate enough to find one.  It is a substantial investment (at least for my pocketbook) and I can imagine that the margin of difference the device makes depends a lot on your individual preferences, system and listening room.

BB
Kii Three Speakers | JL Audio Fathom Subwoofer  | KEF LS50 Speakers | Samsung 850 Soundbar
Innuos Statement | Trinnov Altitude 32 | PS Audio Stellar S300 Amp | T+A HA 200 Headphone Amplifier | Meze Empyrean Headphones
Sean Jacobs DC-3 Custom Build LPS | Roon Core DIY Server | SOtM sNH-10G Modded Switch | Oppo UDP-205 Blu-Ray/SACD Player
T+A G 2000 R Turntable | DS Audio E1 Optical Stylus | Gordian Lab 12 Power Conditioner | Artesania Audio Rack
Reply
#17
(16-Nov-2016, 14:45)Ron McKernan Wrote: I had exactly the same experience after the implementation of Dirac. First, there was a big relief that I got rid of my room modes. But when I switched Dirac off I realised that not only the "boooms" have vanished, but all bass is tighter and straiter forward now than without room correction, the overall SQ has improved as well. I do not want to (I can't!) listen to my music without room correction any more. BIG Problem: My vinyl collection, because the signal from my record player of course cannot be corrected by Dirac. Therefore I am considering to buy a Trinnov ST2, but would wait a while, maybe (sic!) Devialet will keep their promises and integrate RC into the experts. Because the Trinnov is not exactly cheap. But will Devialet RC (Roon RC would be worthless for me: vinyl) have the same quality as Dirac/Trinnov?

I would be very curious how your T+A G 2000 R goes together with the Trinnov ST2!

Ron,

The good news is that my 2000 R seems to profit from the Trinnov similiarly to my digital collection. I am consciously using the word similiar because prior to having the Trinnov, my analogue sources sounded distinctively different to the digital ones. This difference is now reduced considerably.

On the negative side, my impression is that it has also lost some of the "punch" that it had previously. This will definitely require more tweaking but given that the Trinnov has up to 29 programmable user profiles, I am quite confident that I will be able to customize enough to accommodate source, music genre,  daily mood   Tongue etc..
Kii Three Speakers | JL Audio Fathom Subwoofer  | KEF LS50 Speakers | Samsung 850 Soundbar
Innuos Statement | Trinnov Altitude 32 | PS Audio Stellar S300 Amp | T+A HA 200 Headphone Amplifier | Meze Empyrean Headphones
Sean Jacobs DC-3 Custom Build LPS | Roon Core DIY Server | SOtM sNH-10G Modded Switch | Oppo UDP-205 Blu-Ray/SACD Player
T+A G 2000 R Turntable | DS Audio E1 Optical Stylus | Gordian Lab 12 Power Conditioner | Artesania Audio Rack
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)