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German Analog-Forum.de comparison of D250 Pro and D400 versus some other brands
#1
Just stumbled upon a comparison some members (20 people) of the German Analog-Forum.de made of the D250 Pro and D400 versus some other brands.

For the people who understand German, you can find it here: http://www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/board...egen-alle/

They've compared the 250 Pro to a system consisting of:

NAT SE1 (2016 model) with 211 tubes (€8.000).
Gryphon Scorpio CD Player (used as a transport) (€8.000)
Aqua Formula DAC (€12.500)
Conrad Johnson ACT II Pre (€15.000)

The Gryphon Scorpio was used connected directly to the 250 Pro using AES/EBU.


In a second session the D400 was compared to three amps and some other DAC's:

Jeff Rowland 501 (10.000,-eur)
Mark Levinson 434 (13.000,-eur)
NAT Transmitter (17.000,-eur)

DACs used:

Lampizator Der Siebener DAC (7.500,-eur)
Audio Note Kanada ANK Mentor Silver Signature (12.500,-eur)

Don't know which source was used here but again this was connected directly to the D400 using AES/EBU (so not using these DAC's analog outputs connected to the D400).



It's kind of interesting to see what others outside this forum think of Devialet. Of course the people who did these comparisons did not prefer 'our' Devialets though they did remark it would have been more fair to compare the D's to systems as a whole costing an equal amount. Conclusion the D's offer a very good price/performance ratio but they played like "DAC/pre-/poweramp all in ones".

They also compared the D250 Pro directly to the D400 and liked the sound of the D250 Pro more.

For more details see the link I posted or use Google Translate for some translation help. Smile
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, Sonore microRendu/SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


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#2
I think my favourite bit was one of the later comments (not from someone at the aforementioned audition):  As follows via google translate:

'Any other result would have puzzled me. The Devialets are typical lifestyle products and have absolutely nothing to do with good music reproduction. On the penultimate high end I had the dubious pleasure also times their loudspeaker to hear "Phantom" those were in my ears so real Wumtata boxes: thumbdown:
Some visitors found these things even good. Either I have it on the ears or Die ???'

For balance, I recall that a couple of weeks after my 1000 Pro audition, I had the pleasure of listening to a full dCS rig together with D'Agostino momentum m400 mono blocks.  Ignoring cost, I'd take the 1000 Pro, not a word of a lie!  (or if I could, the 1000 Pro, with the dCS Upsampler and clock as source, that would be nice).   I guess it will be a long dark day in the future before everyone will agree on this stuff, and how dull it would be if we did.

Oh, and clearly google translate has it's limits, does anyone know what 'Wumtata' boxes might be? Confused
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - microRendu - Mutec MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#3
(30-Nov-2016, 19:08)Confused Wrote: I think my favourite bit was one of the later comments (not from someone at the aforementioned audition):  As follows via google translate:

'Any other result would have puzzled me. The Devialets are typical lifestyle products and have absolutely nothing to do with good music reproduction. On the penultimate high end I had the dubious pleasure also times their loudspeaker to hear "Phantom" those were in my ears so real Wumtata boxes: thumbdown:
Some visitors found these things even good. Either I have it on the ears or Die ???'

For balance, I recall that a couple of weeks after my 1000 Pro audition, I had the pleasure of listening to a full dCS rig together with D'Agostino momentum m400 mono blocks.  Ignoring cost, I'd take the 1000 Pro, not a word of a lie!  (or if I could, the 1000 Pro, with the dCS Upsampler and clock as source, that would be nice).   I guess it will be a long dark day in the future before everyone will agree on this stuff, and how dull it would be if we did.

Oh, and clearly google translate has it's limits, does anyone know what 'Wumtata' boxes might be? Confused

...ha, ha, ha...Wumtata...substitute 'Wum' as a big 'boom' and 'tata' as some trumpet sound and you have German 'Marschmusik'. Now what the heck is 'Marschmusik'...marching music!
It's an analogy for a very crude loudspeaker  Wink

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#4
I would say there were no Devialet Expert experts present at the comparison. One guy discribed the Devialet sounded like pumping the sound objects to the front every time a loud sound was performed in the music.
The first thing they should have done (nobody knows if they did) cut off DPM and Standby-Modus, and all not used Inputs and give the D just 2h of 'warmup' to make it perform better espacially on transients.

It's sad, but I think the D's belong to the most underestimated amps on the market due to not being engaged the right way. I really think the D's are a 'Diva' if not treated right it gets p... off and won't perform like it could.
Or are we rather deaf here at Devialetchat?  Dodgy

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#5
I was attending this workshop, it was my 250pro, the 400 belongs to a friend. A 3rd Devialet 400 owner was also present. All Devialet owners liked the Devialets very much, they had a much blacker background and also better details than any other amp. The 250pro was compared to a 30k€ frontend of DAC and preamp and NAT tubes costing about 8000€. In the end a unfair comparison, but for my ears the 250pro was better on a Wilson Benesch Discovery and much better on a horn speaker. In the other room the 400 has to fight against a 40k€ system which was sounding better in terms of nicer but not in terms of correctness. The music played was very tube friendly. When playing Yello it was obvious that the tubes have limits. I guess most of the audience were tube fans that simply heard what they wantet to hear (my impression). And some points of criticism were simply wrong, the Devialet 400 was the only amp reproducing sibilants of a choir correctly. Not better sounding but correctly.
There are always some people who think they know how music should sound, but sometimes they are simply wrong. They think if an amp sounds nice and forgiving it is the better amp. My choice would still be the 1000pro that I have, I would even prefer a single 250pro to the tubes. Maybe the tubes shine with some very special music, but as it gets more complex and louder and bass heavier tubes have no chance against a powerful solid state amp.
Not speaking about the heat and extreme power consumption...
For some people the Devialet is like a red rag, and most people still think the Devialet is a Class-D amp. And a Class-D amp is bad...
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#6
There is plenty of resistance in "hifi" circles to Devialet on principle.
As the years have passed IMO, hifi enthusiasts have drifted away from equipment offering actual higher fidelity to anything which sounds nice to some group of enthusiasts.
There is nothing wrong with this from a buyers perspective, better to get something one enjoys listening to after all, but almost all the, frequently reassuringly expensive, kit being enjoyed definitely produces audible levels of distortion. It may be euphonic, enjoyable distortion but it isn't hifi in the original literal sense.
Back in the day both the source, a record player, and speakers were audibly coloured and one could select to taste.
Whilst CD players didn't all sound the same the difference between them was -much- less than the difference between any element of a record player, so one of the ways to tune to taste was taken away.
Neither the Audio Note nor Lampizator DAC are accurate, both are coloured, quite a nice colour though. As far as I know there has never been a SET amp design which doesn't produce audible distortion levels and in addition substantial frequency response modifications to most conventional speakers due to output impedance interaction.

These colourations seem popular with a large group of enthusiasts. I have no problem with people choosing stuff that sounds nice to them, they'd be daft not to. I do take issue with their implication that there is some magic as yet undiscovered reason why their coloured equipment is actually sounding "more like real music" rather than them preferring a bit of added distortion, when there is no other credible explanation.

I consider the Devialet the least coloured amp I have heard and that is why I bought my first.
I have other coloured amps here Smile but I don't use them much any more.
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Meridian Control 15, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).

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#7
An interesting discussion, to which I can only add: I guess (based on YabaVR's hint) that the closest English translation for "Wumtata" would be "Oom-pah-pah" Smile

Thanks for the insider perspective, Vivialet.
Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Sonos ZP90 (Cullen modified), Devialet 440 Pro, Kaiser Chiara
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#8
(30-Nov-2016, 21:03)Vivialet Wrote: For some people the Devialet is like a red rag, and most people still think the Devialet is a Class-D amp. And a Class-D amp is bad...

It is daft but true.
Actually the n-core amps are superb too, much less coloured than any SET amp could be.

I have a good friend who is a simple valve amp fan. I took my D_Premier over to his place and it was much clearer and detailed but he didn't like it he said it was sterile whereas his was definitely veiled.
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Meridian Control 15, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).

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#9
(30-Nov-2016, 21:04)f1eng Wrote: I consider the Devialet the least coloured amp I have heard and that is why I bought my first.
I have other coloured amps here Smile but I don't use them much any more.

That's interesting. Like you I have other amplifiers.

At the moment I find myself listening more to the Absolare/Totaldac combo. It just seems more enjoyable to me at this moment.

I love my O d'A too. It's probably slightly more transparent but at times I feel as though it is missing something. Difficult to put my finger on this. 

I've also heard a few tube amps with highly sensitive speakers, pretty much the complete antithesis of the Devialet approach, and I've really enjoyed these too. Yes distortion (if that's what it is) can sound really nice and I totally get why so many of you enjoy vinyl on your Devialets (I don't have a record player).

I find this hi-fi thing a real journey and I am loathe to say one thing is better than another; they are different.

But I understand your argument about transparency as the definition of hi-fi. In my mind emotions are more important though.



Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

O d'A no.63, Absolare Integrated Signature, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-six, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Transparent Ref XL digital cables, Transparent XL Gen 5 speaker cables, Ansuz Diamond Darkz, Shunyata mains cable prototypes, Shunyata Denali D6000/S, Shunyata Venom RCA, Audioquest Diamond Ethernet, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Paul Pang Audiophile switch w/ MCRU LPS,  sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD & MCRU LPS
UK
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#10
no doubt that the big tubes (NAT Transmitter) were sounding magical with the given music (piano/violin, small choir, vocal/guitar). We have not directly compared the 250pro to these tubes, only the 400. But we compared the 400 to the 250pro which is better in most aspects. So I think a 1000pro is very close to the tubes, maybe a little less magical but more correct and more dynamic. And still much cheaper.
Conclusion for me was that I have exacly the optimal amp for me. But I can also understand people who love the tubes.
What I cannot understand is the Devialet bashing of some people. For me they only show that they have no clue about correct music reproduction.
My reference point for transparency and details is my headphone system (HD800/HDVD800/Mutec MC-3 USB) and the Devialet is the only amp I have heard that comes close in these aspects.
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