Poll: How forgiving is the Pro series top end?
More forgiving to bright/harsh recordings.
As forgiving to bright/harsh recordings.
Less forgiving to bright/harsh recordings.
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Pro vs Non-Pro Top End
#11
(14-Dec-2016, 17:06)Antoine Wrote: As always it's about the system as a whole. I feel the Pro is more accurate and transparent to the source and all other influencing factors like quality of power etc.

I believe the Pro will make any good system sound better but will also more clearly expose faults/shortcomings in a system or better said not mask them. And no it's not clinical or analytical in my opinion, rather the opposite: very musical and engaging.

I agree with this completely.  The Pro series has, to my ear, a refinement and subtlety that the earler series couldn't equal.  My speakers have a berilium tweeter and it has been reported, by some, to be on the "hotter" side of the spectrum so I would expect any additional brightness to be more evident.
Wdw
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#12
I agree absolutely with the above.  The thing is, I'm struggling to understand the poll, or the meaning of the results.  As an example, I have a Pure DAB (digital) radio in my bathroom.  I like the sound of this little thing very much, it is kind of sirupy warm, and it does not have a lot of treble at all.  It's not remotely hifi, but I would have to say it is far more 'forgiving' than my old Expert amp or the Pro, or indeed my previous rig.  Would I want to sit and listen to it for a couple of hours, a favourite album or a few interesting tracks?  No I wouldn't!   It is incredibly forgiving though.

Or to put this another way, surely bright/harsh recordings should sound bright and harsh?
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#13
(14-Dec-2016, 23:37)Confused Wrote: Or to put this another way, surely bright/harsh recordings should sound bright and harsh?


You can build your system to make harsh/bright recordings bearable and create a poll asking how the new amp version will impact said system.
Roon->RoonBridge->SOTM USB 3.0->Transparent Super>Devialet 200->Transparent Super->Wilson Sabrina speakers w/ Rega RP8, Apheta 2, Rega Aria


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#14
My 2 cents worth (or whatever currency works for you... ;-)

I find the difference between good records and bad recordings more obvious and a bit startling with the new Pro than I did with the older Expert.    That's not to say that the Pro is more or less forgiving.  Just that I so much more enjoy good recordings with my 220 Pro.   And when I listen to an older, poorer-quality recording, I find myself less likely to sit through it all.  

So perhaps the correct description is that I'm less forgiving of a poorer-quality recording via the Pro.

But I absolutely love the sound qualilty of my Pro and would not want to go back.
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#15
(14-Dec-2016, 17:29)Antoine Wrote: By coincidence I read an article by Hans Beekhuyzen recently and I think this applies a bit here as I feel there are very little -really- bad recordings. Of course there are many that are 'hotter' in the treble than others or horribly compressed ones with distortion, in some productions there's even added edge to voices (e.g. modern pop recordings) but if someone finds his system (including the room) is in general or too often "sibilant" I think the system itself is the problem. Of course a system should not mask/filter out highs and should still be able to portray those frequencies, it should "just do so" without distortion or pulling attention to that (or any specific) frequency range. Also one should be able to easily differentiate different qualities of recordings, when everything sounds more or less the same or dull, soft or recessed something's wrong as well.

http://thehbproject.com/en/articles/52/3...your-brain

+1 Interesting Article. Also found this quote from the same which one could also apply in regards to the Expert Pro vs. Expert discussion ..  Angel

"The problem with the brain is that it doesn’t like loose ends; if no sensible information is available, the brain will make up ‘sensible’ information by itself. It is also very good in coming up with favorable solutions. I’ll give you an example from the past: in the eighties there was a brand that had issued the one very good cd-player after the other, ranging from very affordable to truly high end. One day they introduced a model just below their top model that sounded far from good given its price and my colleague and I were confused. We immediately started to look for what WE did wrong as where it was the player that offered poor quality. After some time we heard that an English colleague had the same player under review so we phoned him. He had equal experiences  and only than we would accept this time that brand had screwed up."
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#16
Maybe we need an 80's CD DSP option for the Pro, something that drops the treble a touch, gives a bit of a mid bass 'warmth' boost. Crazy? Maybe, but could work I think. I would say though that rather than buying and setting up a system to deal with harsh recordings, the alternative option when faced with a 'harsh' sounding recording, would be to turn the treble down a notch or two, simple! An even simper approach would be to note that the particular CD, album or whatever is a little harsh in the treble, ignore it and enjoy the music for what it is.
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#17
(18-Dec-2016, 12:25)Confused Wrote: Maybe we need an 80's CD DSP option for the Pro, something that drops the treble a touch, gives a bit of a mid bass 'warmth' boost.  Crazy?  Maybe, but could work I think.  I would say though that rather than buying and setting up a system to deal with harsh recordings, the alternative option when faced with a 'harsh' sounding recording, would be to turn the treble down a notch or two, simple!  An even simper approach would be to note that the particular CD, album or whatever is a little harsh in the treble, ignore it and enjoy the music for what it is.


I think it's not the magnitude of treble that we all complain about. I bet the frequency response of these recordings isn't out of level if you meassure it.

It is all about jitter - a time dependent distortion if you will, that our ears are not capable of to compensate on. It's an unnatural distortion.
Some CDs carry a lot of jitter in its recording (due to bad digital recording or bad A/D processing). You can not change that. Jitter patterns add up during reading/streaming/amplifying (D-Amp) and you would get more and more of these 'Out of Phase Signal Patterns'. One brain earlier like the other complains about the harsh sound of treble. This harsh sound is only an 'Out of Phase Signals' and as we are very sensible in the highs we recognize it easier in this frequency band.

I know this because when the source is getting more precise, jitter (edit: jitter of the audio chain in sum) lessens and the harshness goes away...it gets In Phase to the rest of the music signal and contributes to further transparency and 3D-Mapping.

Get better power, source quality and cables and everything will be ok.

Lowering the treble is like the pill from your doctor who doesn't know what caused your illness.

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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#18
(18-Dec-2016, 12:54)yabaVR Wrote:
(18-Dec-2016, 12:25)Confused Wrote: Maybe we need an 80's CD DSP option for the Pro, something that drops the treble a touch, gives a bit of a mid bass 'warmth' boost.  Crazy?  Maybe, but could work I think.  I would say though that rather than buying and setting up a system to deal with harsh recordings, the alternative option when faced with a 'harsh' sounding recording, would be to turn the treble down a notch or two, simple!  An even simper approach would be to note that the particular CD, album or whatever is a little harsh in the treble, ignore it and enjoy the music for what it is.


I think it's not the magnitude of treble that we all complain about. I bet the frequency response of these recordings isn't out of level if you meassure it.

It is all about jitter - a time dependent distortion if you will, that our ears are not capable of to compensate on. It's an unnatural distortion.
Some CDs carry a lot of jitter in its recording (due to bad digital recording or bad A/D processing). You can not change that. Jitter patterns add up during reading/streaming/amplifying (D-Amp) and you would get more and more of these 'Out of Phase Signal Patterns'. One brain earlier like the other complains about the harsh sound of treble. This harsh sound is only an 'Out of Phase Signals' and as we are very sensible in the highs we recognize it easier in this frequency band.

I know this because when the source is getting more precise, jitter lessens and the harshness goes away...it gets In Phase to the rest of the music signal and contributes to further transparency and 3D-Mapping.

Get better power, source quality and cables and everything will be ok.

By the way, I think you're correct, those pills my doctor gave me are really not helping either.....

Lowering the treble is like the pill from your doctor who doesn't know what caused your illness.

gui

Fair enough, I can see your point, but my rig has a knob for turning down the treble, it hasn't got one for turning down jitter.  Also, if jitter is an inherent part of the CD's recording, logic dictates that this will not be changed by changing cables.  A better source might help?  Can the source correct jitter errors in the CD?  Or will it just make them more apparent?  This one I'm not sure about!
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - microRendu - Mutec MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#19
I've been doing much listening to my little Pro this morning. First some Herbie Hancock, which was great fun, it is clearly not the best recording ever, but getting over that philological hurdle, it did sound very enjoyable, if not showing the system in it's best light, but there is still some magic, the dynamics are great, and the insight into the instruments is extraordinary, good fun too! Next up, some Yello, this was a much better recording and suddenly the system is sounding epic! Whatever the shortcomings were with Herbie, these have now gone, just by selecting a different album. I'm now listening to the Who, and in a great irony for this thread, it sounds like the mix does not have enough treble!
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - microRendu - Mutec MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#20
(18-Dec-2016, 13:26)Confused Wrote: I've been doing much listening to my little Pro this morning.  First some Herbie Hancock, which was great fun, it is clearly not the best recording ever, but getting over that philological hurdle, it did sound very enjoyable, if not showing the system in it's best light, but there is still some magic, the dynamics are great, and the insight into the instruments is extraordinary, good fun too!  Next up, some Yello, this was a much better recording and suddenly the system is sounding epic!   Whatever the shortcomings were with Herbie, these have now gone, just by selecting a different album.  I'm now listening to the Who, and in a great irony for this thread, it sounds like the mix does not have enough treble!

As I said you can't get rid of the inherent jitter of the recording e.g. listen to 'Birdy - Birdy' (as Antoine suggested earlier) . For me it's a cheaply made recording and it's got quiet an amount of jitter in it hence the harsh in treble. But listened to by a 'perfect' system adding no more jitter it might be bearable.

The Who might have a good A/D processing on this CD but the treble on the old analogue tape also might have suffered or equipment wasn't that good with this recording/analogue mastering. Your Pro is as transparent to show you the diffs. It's conclusive to me then.

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - foobar AO/jplay/process lasso/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 - 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
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