Martin Logan Summit X

[Jwg1749]

IMO the current range of Martin Logans shouldn't sound hard or edgy at high volumes. If they do, it's most likely the amp's protection circuits are cutting in and are causing soft clipping. This can produce a hard and flat sound.

If so, you need an amp with higher voltage output. Remember: with ESLs it's about voltage, not current, because ESLs are capacitors, not resistors. A Devialet can supply bags of current, which makes it brilliant at driving conventional (resistive) electrodynamic speakers, but not ideal for (capacitative) ESLs.

If you have an overly bright presentation at all volumes, that's more likely to be the result of room reflections or speaker placement. Try toeing the speakers out a bit and adjusting the feet so that the panel is nearly vertical. And get lots of soft furnishings. I think MLs prefer a fairly 'dead' acoustic.

But whatever the cause of the problem, you should know immediately when you've solved it, because the speakers will sound as smooth as silk and present a 'walk-through' 3D image.

Matt

[chiphoust]

I have a Transparent Reference AES/EBU laying around. I will try this if needed.
Thanks for the tip.

So...  off to do the D400 audition this weekend or next, but I suspect Matt's comments may prove true for me too.  I hope not though.

I am currious about your RCA-XLR connectoin reference in that I know very little about how the companion gets connected.  Are you using an RCA/XLR adapter and going from the RCA out on the main to the AES/EBU connectoin on the compantion?  Can you go straight AES/EBU from the main to the AES/EBU on the companion?

Thanks for the help.

Looking forward to knowing your feedback on the D400 audition.

for the Master/Slave link you can either have RCA to RCA or RCA @ master side and AES/EBU @ slave side. Devialet does not support AES/EBU to AES/EBU

for more on this, i suggest you have a look on this thread

http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=151

on page 19 post #182 i posted details on my master/slave link and how i used a Neutrik RCA/XLR adapter

[chiphoust]

With my big ARC tube amps, the speakers only get harsh at very high volumes. Otherwise they are smooth as silk and present a walk through image. The grip is not are good as solid state, but that the trade off eh? My guess is that the amps are clipping at those levels. I have tried the various vertical positions and landed at the minus one (1) degree setting as best. The toe-in was set using the flashlight technique, now iPhone flashlight technique. I am listening to the inner 1/3 of the panel at most. i am familiar with the "wall-slap" created by an improper toe-in.

Back to the point... I am thinking of auditioning the Audio Research DM450 monoblocks. ARC claims they also have a linear power supply and can deliver what ESL's need. The only concern is that these are D Class amplifiers. I tend to gravitate to Audio Research amplifiers because I love Audio Research tube pre-amps and there definitely is synergy with the combination.

Thanks for your thoughts.

IMO the current range of Martin Logans shouldn't sound hard or edgy at high volumes. If they do, it's most likely the amp's protection circuits are cutting in and are causing soft clipping. This can produce a hard and flat sound.

If so, you need an amp with higher voltage output. Remember: with ESLs it's about voltage, not current, because ESLs are capacitors, not resistors. A Devialet can supply bags of current, which makes it brilliant at driving conventional (resistive) electrodynamic speakers, but not ideal for (capacitative) ESLs.

If you have an overly bright presentation at all volumes, that's more likely to be the result of room reflections or speaker placement. Try toeing the speakers out a bit and adjusting the feet so that the panel is nearly vertical. And get lots of soft furnishings. I think MLs prefer a fairly 'dead' acoustic.

But whatever the cause of the problem, you should know immediately when you've solved it, because the speakers will sound as smooth as silk and present a 'walk-through' 3D image.

Matt

[Jwg1749]

With my big ARC tube amps, the speakers only get harsh at very high volumes.  Otherwise they are smooth as silk and present a walk through image.  The grip is not are good as solid state, but that the trade off eh?  My guess is that the amps are clipping at those levels.  I have tried the various vertical positions and landed at the minus one (1) degree setting as best.  The toe-in was set using the flashlight technique, now iPhone flashlight technique.  I am listening to the inner 1/3 of the panel at most.  i am familiar with the "wall-slap" created by an improper toe-in.

Back to the point...  I am thinking of auditioning the Audio Research DM450 monoblocks.  ARC claims they also have a linear power supply and can deliver what ESL's need.  The only concern is that these are D Class amplifiers.  I tend to gravitate to Audio Research amplifiers because I love Audio Research tube pre-amps and there definitely is synergy with the combination.

Thanks for your thoughts.
   

You're obviously familiar with the foibles of ML panels! 

I haven't tried Class D amps with MLs. I'll be interested to hear your views on the AR monoblocs. 

Because of their wild impedance swings, MLs are possibly the most difficult speakers to drive. But when you get it right, there's very little that comes close ...

Matt

[chiphoust]

The energy storage of the DS450M's is 1368 joules, which is pretty serious and should be able to handle some pretty wild impedance.

??? Is Roger Sanders related to Gayle Martin Sanders, the co-founder of Martin Logan ???

With my big ARC tube amps, the speakers only get harsh at very high volumes.  Otherwise they are smooth as silk and present a walk through image.  The grip is not are good as solid state, but that the trade off eh?  My guess is that the amps are clipping at those levels.  I have tried the various vertical positions and landed at the minus one (1) degree setting as best.  The toe-in was set using the flashlight technique, now iPhone flashlight technique.  I am listening to the inner 1/3 of the panel at most.  i am familiar with the "wall-slap" created by an improper toe-in.

Back to the point...  I am thinking of auditioning the Audio Research DM450 monoblocks.  ARC claims they also have a linear power supply and can deliver what ESL's need.  The only concern is that these are D Class amplifiers.  I tend to gravitate to Audio Research amplifiers because I love Audio Research tube pre-amps and there definitely is synergy with the combination.

Thanks for your thoughts.
   

You're obviously familiar with the foibles of ML panels! 

I haven't tried Class D amps with MLs. I'll be interested to hear your views on the AR monoblocs. 

Because of their wild impedance swings, MLs are possibly the most difficult speakers to drive. But when you get it right, there's very little that comes close ...

Matt

[ozthepoz]

I am a newbie.  I hope this post is appropriate.  If not, someone please tell me.

I have Martin Logan Summit X's and have been wanting to substitue solidstate for my current Audio Research 200 watt mnonblocks and ARC preamp, with a Bryston BDA-2 DAC and MacMini running Amararra.

About 9 months ago, the local dealer brought in a Devialet 250 to audition on his store demo Summit X's.  He called me in to listen.  It was breathtaking.  In 40+ years of doing this, I had rarely, if ever, heard anything better.  My wife was there and heard the same.  All she wanted was a home audition.  Regrettable, the dealer had to send the demo 250 back and that was that.  No home auditoin.  No purchase.  7 months later the dealer advised that he had a D200 for me to home audition.  Off to the races, or so I thought.  It was nice, but not breathtaking.  It was a bit too forward and incisive in the upper midrange and treble, particularly female vocals.  To continue to quote Robert Harley's recent Absolute Sounds review:  It tended to "emplasize the harmonics of the strings rather than the instruments’ bodies. Cymbals were more prominent in the mix than through my reference amplifiers, and vocals had a touch of sibilance."  

It also seemd a bit flat and uninvolving.  I started getting fatigued about an hour into the listening session.  There was no toe tapping and no singing-a-long by the wife.  She was nonplussed.  It seemed like the D200 was straining to contend with the low impedance of the ML's at higher volumes.  One interesting thing of note:  I had to turn down the Summit X powered subwoofers to get proper bass balance.

I am now waiting for a D200 companion to arrive to see if that solves the issue.  It seemded to do it for Mr. Harley.  I hope I have the same experience.  I am told that the D400 configuration will stomp the D250 by itself.

I saw some ML Montis owners post about their positive experiences.  Please share any thoughts you might have.

Oh.. by the way I do not think it is the speakers cables.  They are Tranparent Reference, albeit the older XL technolgy.    

I also plan to hook up my old, but pristine, pair of B&W Signature 30's to see how those boxes do.  It should be wonderful.  For now though, the real issue is what to use to drive the Summit X's.  

I will post the results of the D400 audition in 2 weeks or so.

Hi - my tuppence worth. 

So I home demoed a D-Prem about 18 months ago and fell in love pretty much straight away   . Couldn't afford it at the time, but when Devialet l launched their new range, I thought a 170 would do the job of driving my ML Vantages. 

So I borrowed one, all ready to splash out, but found that I wasn't enjoying the music quite so much. Lots of good things going on, but no D-Premier magic. I then borrowed a 240 and re-discovered what I had been missing. 

Eventually I bought a D-Prem and upgraded it to a 250 and the romance is back into my listening.

I know the difference between a 200 and a 250 is meant to be minimal, and there are other posters on this forum who drive MLs with a 200 quite happily, but my ears tell me otherwise.  

[chiphoust]

Thank you for your post.

i agree with your comments.

So.... I am currently auditioning the D400 monos. As everyone may know, Robert Harley did a D200/D400 comparison review in the Absolute Sound 2/2015 edition. Everything he reported is being realized by me. In summary, the D200 was somewhat lacking. The D400, however, has provided unexpected good results. The sibilance is gone. The harshness is gone. The high volume strain is gone. The sound is alive, not flat. The slam is there. There is a magical combination of detail and liquidity. There is no noise. I can hear further into the music than ever before. It can play the Summit X's at near concert levels without hearing a hint of strain. At the -15 db volume setting, I could not take the SPL's and had to turn it down. This was not due to clipping. It was just too damn loud. Lastly and perhaps most important, the D400 monos did not fatigue me, whereas the D200 did, almost immediately, and they gave me a headache. I plan to do a "no alcohol involved" 4-5 hour listening session this weekend to test that completely.

Another surprise was that I had to dial back the Summit X sub-woofers to get a proper balance with the panels. The 25 hz knob is at -4 db, the 50 hz is at -3 db. Admittedly, those may not be the final resting points. I may need to run a room scan to get it right.

Anyway... Enjoy.

I am a newbie.  I hope this post is appropriate.  If not, someone please tell me.

I have Martin Logan Summit X's and have been wanting to substitue solidstate for my current Audio Research 200 watt mnonblocks and ARC preamp, with a Bryston BDA-2 DAC and MacMini running Amararra.

About 9 months ago, the local dealer brought in a Devialet 250 to audition on his store demo Summit X's.  He called me in to listen.  It was breathtaking.  In 40+ years of doing this, I had rarely, if ever, heard anything better.  My wife was there and heard the same.  All she wanted was a home audition.  Regrettable, the dealer had to send the demo 250 back and that was that.  No home auditoin.  No purchase.  7 months later the dealer advised that he had a D200 for me to home audition.  Off to the races, or so I thought.  It was nice, but not breathtaking.  It was a bit too forward and incisive in the upper midrange and treble, particularly female vocals.  To continue to quote Robert Harley's recent Absolute Sounds review:  It tended to "emplasize the harmonics of the strings rather than the instruments’ bodies. Cymbals were more prominent in the mix than through my reference amplifiers, and vocals had a touch of sibilance."  

It also seemd a bit flat and uninvolving.  I started getting fatigued about an hour into the listening session.  There was no toe tapping and no singing-a-long by the wife.  She was nonplussed.  It seemed like the D200 was straining to contend with the low impedance of the ML's at higher volumes.  One interesting thing of note:  I had to turn down the Summit X powered subwoofers to get proper bass balance.

I am now waiting for a D200 companion to arrive to see if that solves the issue.  It seemded to do it for Mr. Harley.  I hope I have the same experience.  I am told that the D400 configuration will stomp the D250 by itself.

I saw some ML Montis owners post about their positive experiences.  Please share any thoughts you might have.

Oh.. by the way I do not think it is the speakers cables.  They are Tranparent Reference, albeit the older XL technolgy.    

I also plan to hook up my old, but pristine, pair of B&W Signature 30's to see how those boxes do.  It should be wonderful.  For now though, the real issue is what to use to drive the Summit X's.  

I will post the results of the D400 audition in 2 weeks or so.

Hi - my tuppence worth. 

So I home demoed a D-Prem about 18 months ago and fell in love pretty much straight away   . Couldn't afford it at the time, but when Devialet l launched their new range, I thought a 170 would do the job of driving my ML Vantages. 

So I borrowed one, all ready to splash out, but found that I wasn't enjoying the music quite so much. Lots of good things going on, but no D-Premier magic. I then borrowed a 240 and re-discovered what I had been missing. 

Eventually I bought a D-Prem and upgraded it to a 250 and the romance is back into my listening.

I know the difference between a 200 and a 250 is meant to be minimal, and there are other posters on this forum who drive MLs with a 200 quite happily, but my ears tell me otherwise.  

[Jwg1749]

I had a 200 Companion on home demo (paired with my own 200) at the same time as a Sanders Magtech power amp. The Magtech was so much better than the 400 at driving my ML Montis: I was shocked. I bought the Magtech. I do still think the Devialets are among the very best amps for driving electrodynamic speakers, just not for electrostatics.

Matt

[Confused]

Picking up on ozthepoz's comments above, I think that there can actually be a very big difference between the 200 & 250. I say can, rather than is, because this is very much speaker dependant. With some speakers the difference appears to be non existent, I guess with speakers that provide easier loads. However, I observed from my experience auditioning amps with the KEF Blades that the difference between what was then the 170 & 240 was huge, far more than you would expect from the delta in power. It should be remembered that the different case for the 250 makes a huge difference in the cooling performance of the amp, which is in itself related to how the power supply reacts to load demands. For me the difference was night and day in terms of dynamics and control etc.

To be clear, I have no idea how this relates to driving ML's. It's a case of things being rather more complex than you might think in the relationship between amplifier and any given speaker.

[chiphoust]

I plan to auditoin the Sanders amps too, mainly based on your post. I am looking at the ESL Mkii monoblocks. Thoughts?

I had a 200 Companion on home demo (paired with my own 200) at the same time as a Sanders Magtech power amp. The Magtech was so much better than the 400 at driving my ML Montis: I was shocked. I bought the Magtech. I do still think the Devialets are among the very best amps for driving electrodynamic speakers, just not for electrostatics.

Matt