Auralic Aries

[GuillaumeB]

Open source and 3rd party developers are great as long as they continue to develop decent software and continue to support their products. The Linn experience has been quite interesting in this regard. Originally their approach was to go completely open source but the result was that they lost control of the CP experience since many apps were unreliable and didn't work well. Many consumers got fed up and this reflected badly on Linn. A number of 3rd party developers had jumped into the market and developed apps (some better than others) but didn't always bother to support the products beyond a certain point (which was a problem since Linn regularly updated the firmware of their streamers). I suppose this is why a number of manufacturers have now taken control of the user experience - for e.g. Lumin, Auralic, Linn etc. It's rumoured that Linn's new CP platform Kazoo went way over budget and only just went live a week ago after almost a couple of years of development. I understand it's still very buggy. I expect Lightning DS will take time to become fully functional and stable. I don't think we should underestimate the amount of work required.

We are talking about different thing. Where you are talking about relying on 3rd part software I'm talking about allowing 3rd party software.

A possibility to get something is way better than the option to not get anything at all. Take Moon 180D for example. You can use it with almost any UPnP software, but if that wasn't the case what would be the options? As far as I see it, the only option would be to use the crappy iOS software. No OsX app, no Windows app, no Linux app, no BSD app, no Android app, no Windows Phone app no nothing. Just the app for iOS that ain't so goo and in fact stopped working "properly" when iOS update arrived. Yay for that. A streamer only for Apple mobile device owners, who don't upgrade their OS.

A lot of Linn users on Android happen to use BubbleDS, not developed by Linn, btw.

So if Devialet did go down the UPnP route (big if!) it would be interesting to see what kind of resources they would throw at this. Would they be happy depending on 3rd party apps? I somehow doubt it. They seem to have more than enough on their plates at the moment with AIR, SAM etc. No doubt the DSD development effort is taking up lots of internal resources too.

No, they should not depend on 3rd party apps, but they should allow them. Unless, of course, they plan on supporting all the available platform themselves. I could live with that as well, but as it would require a lot of development effort, well it's like you said.

If I were in their shoes (which I'm not!) I would white label Streaming Unlimited. But then we have the question of whether the Devialet unit can technically actually do UPnP. Where would the processing for this sit? In the AIR chip?

I'd be really surprised if Devialet couldn't do UPnP. Even RasberryPi and way inferior hardware can do UPnP. Actually Devialet does all the thing needed for UPnP already, but not in UPnP related contexts.

Still, I think Devialet should opt for OpenHome as it extends UPnP/DLNA somewhat.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I cannot imagine Devialet will enable UPnP without bringing out a robust control point of their own. And I think this is quite a substantial undertaking, based on the experience of all the other manufacturers in this field. I therefore don't see this as too likely.

Guillaume

[jjo]

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I cannot imagine Devialet will enable UPnP without bringing out a robust control point of their own. And I think this is quite a substantial undertaking, based on the experience of all the other manufacturers in this field. I therefore don't see this as too likely.

Nor should they. But I don't see the UPnP support very likely either, but for very different reasons. Devialet is a lot about software, they seem to have very skilled engineers working for them and they put a lot of effort in producing quality software. They are not quite there yet and their software is continuously evolving, which is good.

The problem is, they have selected their path with streaming and they may not want to back down or give in to more standard methods of streaming. They claim their way is superior and they want to stick with that. Which is fine, in a way.

It's just too bad that they have selected the you should listen to music with a laptop on your lap/you should run back and fort between a computer and your hifi to select the music you want to play/you can only stream form Windows or Mac/why not distract yourself with a computer while listening -way that I'm not personally a huge fan of.

Luckily I can still use an external streamer. It does chip a way some of the one -box-solution awesomeness, but what can you do.

[Antoine]

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The problem is, they have selected their path with streaming and they may not want to back down or give in to more standard methods of streaming. They claim their way is superior and they want to stick with that. Which is fine, in a way.

It's just too bad that they have selected the you should listen to music with a laptop on your lap/you should run back and fort between a computer and your hifi to select the music you want to play/you can only stream form Windows or Mac/why not distract yourself with a computer while listening -way that I'm not personally a huge fan of.

<cut>

Well I am perfectly happy with my dedicated PC based solution running JRiver. Together with my iPad running JRemote I have everything I need. Once setup it's set and forget, absolutely no need to "run back and fort between a computer and HiFi".

So in my case no need for UPnP or an external streamer, it would be an over redundant piece in the chain. Your Devialet can already be the bridge between the computer/network "world" and the HiFi world and you even have a choice in using the input you like most: USB + ethernet (and even the usually lesser quality digital or analog outputs of a PC).

Of course some people already owned a NAS before they bought the Devialet (well sell the NAS and buy back a small, simple, silent, cheap PC and use that as a 24/7 up-and-running NAS) or may be scared of the PC based solution (get over it, there's lots of how-to's, guides and even specialists who sell these as complete solutions!! ) I feel this is where we're all going: computer based playback. Using a PC you'll have maximum flexibility, it's future proof, you can use stable software that's been around for years and don't have to depend on extra manufacturers (beside Devialet of course) like Auralic that start at near zero to create a working (software) solution.

uPNP has serious disadvantages and if manufacturers do a good job they'll hide that fact from you but I agree with Devialet in that in a way they've chosen a superior solution as it is completely application agnostic and ties in to the driver layer of the operating system as a virtual soundcard. There is a downside though and that's the closed/proprietary nature of their solution and also the limited cross platform support. And Devialet also had to start from near zero for which we, their customers, have paid the price as well as it took Devialet and us quite some time to create a stable solution. Now that it is (some say, almost ) there we can reap the benefits and use every and any PC based application we'd like to produce music and sound.

[jjo]

Well I am perfectly happy with my dedicated PC based solution running JRiver. Together with my iPad running JRemote I have everything I need. Once setup it's set and forget, absolutely no need to "run back and fort between a computer and HiFi".

I glad the solution is good for you. I have to admit that I totally forgot the "wants to have/accepts/needs to have a computer in the same space with the hifi" solution. It is not for me either, but I know some people like it, even if it's not a one box soltuion.

So in my case no need for UPnP or an external streamer, it would be an over redundant piece in the chain.

Yes, exactly what a dedicated music pc would be for me.

Your Devialet can already be the bridge between the computer/network "world" and the HiFi world and you even have a choice in using the input you like most: USB + ethernet (and even the usually lesser quality digital or analog outputs of a PC).

It can. But it is also a computer that could just play the music without another computer/streamer/whatever helping it do it. For now it just doesn't do it.

Of course some people already owned a NAS before they bought the Devialet (well sell the NAS and buy back a small, simple, silent, cheap PC and use that as a 24/7 up-and-running NAS) or may be scared of the PC based solution (get over it, there's lots of how-to's, guides and even specialists who sell these as complete solutions!! )

I'm not scared of the PC based solutions, I just don't like them. What I want is a product that works well out of the box, does the thing it's designed to do and does it well.

When I was younger I used to like tweaking computers. Nowadays I do that more than enough at work, so when I get home I just wanna use something that works. Nothing wrong with tweaking though, if it's the kinda thing you happen to like.

I feel this is where we're all going: computer based playback. Using a PC you'll have maximum flexibility, it's future proof, you can use stable software that's been around for years and don't have to depend on extra manufacturers (beside Devialet of course) like Auralic that start at near zero to create a working (software) solution.

I strongly believe there will always be people who want to buy a product and jut use it. Not everyone get's their kicks from building the perfect media center pc.

uPNP has serious disadvantages and if manufacturers do a good job they'll hide that fact from you

As someone who has been invloved in creating a commercial product based on UPnP, I'd like to hear what the serious disadvantages are in your opinion?

but I agree with Devialet in that in a way they've chosen a superior solution as it is completely application agnostic and ties in to the driver layer of the operating system as a virtual soundcard.

We just have to agree to disagree then. I would not mind if the Devialet way was one of the options, like Songcast is for Linn, but I think it sucks as the only option.

There is a downside though and that's the closed/proprietary nature of their solution and also the limited cross platform support. And Devialet also had to start from near zero for which we, their customers, have paid the price as well as it took Devialet and us quite some time to create a stable solution. Now that it is (some say, almost ) there we can reap the benefits and use every and any PC based application we'd like to produce music and sound.

Yes, some people can reap the benefits, but...

For Linux users it's useless. For Windows Phone users it's useless. For people using unsupported versions of Windows/OsX it's useless. If Devialet ever decides/is forced to stop the driver code development for new OS versions, it's gonna be useless for everyone but people with old operating systems.

Also, for people only interested in playing files from their library, it's way too complicated.

Anyways, I just ordered Aries so that's that then.

[ZincAlloy]

Good point Phil - I live outside Belfast, so if I can find a Republic of Ireland based dealer, it's a short drive to the Eurozone... Failing that, does anybody on the forum intend to holiday in France soon?

ATB, Ken

I just checked the Auralic site and I couldn't see any authorised dealers in RoI or Northern Ireland... Why not take a flight to France and visit Maison Devialet whilst you're there.

It does say on the Auralic site that you can order directly from them but doesn't quote any prices - you have to send them an e-mail.

Good luck!

Thanks Phil - just called my Devialet dealer in Dublin. Apparently he's had a few requests for the Aries over the last week, so there may be a solution soon!

ATB, Ken

I think the same distributor has both UK/Ireland, so sadly we'll get the same (high) UK price (I'm in Dublin!!) rather than the euro one.

Hi Neffa - I've just spoken to Noel at Cloney Audio. He's getting a few requests for these and will get some demo models in. Worth having a chat with him.

ATB, Ken

---

Open source and 3rd party developers are great as long as they continue to develop decent software and continue to support their products. The Linn experience has been quite interesting in this regard. Originally their approach was to go completely open source but the result was that they lost control of the CP experience since many apps were unreliable and didn't work well. Many consumers got fed up and this reflected badly on Linn. A number of 3rd party developers had jumped into the market and developed apps (some better than others) but didn't always bother to support the products beyond a certain point (which was a problem since Linn regularly updated the firmware of their streamers). I suppose this is why a number of manufacturers have now taken control of the user experience - for e.g. Lumin, Auralic, Linn etc. It's rumoured that Linn's new CP platform Kazoo went way over budget and only just went live a week ago after almost a couple of years of development. I understand it's still very buggy. I expect Lightning DS will take time to become fully functional and stable. I don't think we should underestimate the amount of work required.

We are talking about different thing. Where you are talking about relying on 3rd part software I'm talking about allowing 3rd party software.

A possibility to get something is way better than the option to not get anything at all. Take Moon 180D for example. You can use it with almost any UPnP software, but if that wasn't the case what would be the options? As far as I see it, the only option would be to use the crappy iOS software. No OsX app, no Windows app, no Linux app, no BSD app, no Android app, no Windows Phone app no nothing. Just the app for iOS that ain't so goo and in fact stopped working "properly" when iOS update arrived. Yay for that. A streamer only for Apple mobile device owners, who don't upgrade their OS.

A lot of Linn users on Android happen to use BubbleDS, not developed by Linn, btw.

So if Devialet did go down the UPnP route (big if!) it would be interesting to see what kind of resources they would throw at this. Would they be happy depending on 3rd party apps? I somehow doubt it. They seem to have more than enough on their plates at the moment with AIR, SAM etc. No doubt the DSD development effort is taking up lots of internal resources too.

No, they should not depend on 3rd party apps, but they should allow them. Unless, of course, they plan on supporting all the available platform themselves. I could live with that as well, but as it would require a lot of development effort, well it's like you said.

If I were in their shoes (which I'm not!) I would white label Streaming Unlimited. But then we have the question of whether the Devialet unit can technically actually do UPnP. Where would the processing for this sit? In the AIR chip?

I'd be really surprised if Devialet couldn't do UPnP. Even RasberryPi and way inferior hardware can do UPnP. Actually Devialet does all the thing needed for UPnP already, but not in UPnP related contexts.

Still, I think Devialet should opt for OpenHome as it extends UPnP/DLNA somewhat.

Hi - back on topic - allegedly, Auralic will provide direct USB HD support in a forthcoming firmware upgrade. So - plug your £60 USB HD directly into the Aries - Devialiet uPnP support becomes irrelevant. This would be the ideal solution. IMHO.

ATB, Ken

[jjo]

Hi - back on topic - allegedly, Auralic will provide direct USB HD support in a forthcoming firmware upgrade. So - plug your £60 USB HD directly into the Aries - Devialiet uPnP support becomes irrelevant. This would be the ideal solution. IMHO.

Well, when your library is more than 1TB and you want redundancy, then the USB disc really isn't the handiest solution. Also I think ethernet delivered packets are superior to ones delivered via S/PDIF or USB since retransmission and checksums make sure all the bits are there exactly as they should and no conversions for other protocols is needed. If the DAC accepts ethernet, it's a good idea to use it.

Still great to hear about this kind of option. I'm waiting for my Aries really eagerly. Will report back here once I get it

[ZincAlloy]

Hi - back on topic - allegedly, Auralic will provide direct USB HD support in a forthcoming firmware upgrade. So - plug your £60 USB HD directly into the Aries - Devialiet uPnP support becomes irrelevant. This would be the ideal solution. IMHO.

Well, when your library is more than 1TB and you want redundancy, then the USB disc really isn't the handiest solution. Also I think ethernet delivered packets are superior to ones delivered via S/PDIF or USB since retransmission and checksums make sure all the bits are there exactly as they should and no conversions for other protocols is needed. If the DAC accepts ethernet, it's a good idea to use it.

Still great to hear about this kind of option. I'm waiting for my Aries really eagerly. Will report back here once I get it

My library is 1.4 Tb and fits onto a portable HD, the size of a pack of cigs. It's actually my backup, the library is also on a Synology 212j and I'd intend to keep the NAS as my main storage, and just copy to the HD every week. I have a Devialet 200 and, to my ears, the USB input sounds a little better than Ethernet or S/PDIF. However, there's not much in it, to be honest.

Would be very keen to hear your views on the Aries. Did you opt for the LE version or the upgraded one?

ATB, Ken


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[jjo]

My library is 1.4 Tb and fits onto a portable HD, the size of a pack of cigs. It's actually my backup, the library is also on a Synology 212j and I'd intend to keep the NAS as my main storage, and just copy to the HD every week.

I guess that is one way of doing it

I have a Devialet 200 and, to my ears, the USB input sounds a little better than Ethernet or S/PDIF. However, there's not much in it, to be honest.

Interesting in more than one way.

Would be very keen to hear your views on the Aries. Did you opt for the LE version or the upgraded one?

Beforehand I was really torn and could not seem to make up my mind. Luckily only the upgraded one was available in the initial batch of devices to the distributor, so that's what I ended up ordering.

[GuillaumeB]

If I were in their shoes (which I'm not!) I would white label Streaming Unlimited.

Actually I spoke complete nonsense (and not for the first time!). The StreamUnlimited solution is a hardware + software package and requires a specific chip (BridgeCo DM860A). So that's not an option.

Otherwise I agree with jjo. Devialet are not going to do a u-turn on this and have too much invested in AIR (both resource-wise and intellectually).

Could AIR be made to work in a multi-room situation though?

Guillaume

[Georgethesixth]

This discussion is fascinating. How can it be that people on the one hand spend hard cash trying to exclude every possible interference, and on the other hand ask for non-essential features on a purpose build hardware platform.

I do hope that Devialet will keep a focus on core musical quality, features and stability. There is still some work to do on AIR reliability, feature support (functions of app's need to be available in AIR) and platform support (Linux version ?). If you ask me - which nobody does off course -, 'Me too'-features are only distracting when they are not necessary from a marketing point of view.

If they were an IT-company, they probably would have been acquired by an industry-giant. There brand-name is valuable at the moment, but that can change very quickly. The way they partner with Athom might be a hint for the future : forming a good partnership with an established vendor and make sure the interoperability between two products is excellent. Add the name 'Devialet' as a quality-token and make some money on the brand.
The 'SAM-ready' label might also be a smart marketing move if they can get speaker manufacturers so far that they are willing to add the Devialet-label in their marketing.