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Innuos Zenith ripper/streamer
#11
(12-Mar-2017, 20:05)Antoine Wrote: I'd be careful buying this, at least if you'd like to run it as a Roon Server.

Stumbled at a review in a Polish magine (in English, see: http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-726&lang=en) and saw the Zenith mkII has an off the shelf Supermicro X10SBA-L motherboard (about 160 store price,see: http://www.supermicro.com/products/mothe...0sba-l.cfm) with integrated Celeron quad core 2.0GHz CPU. The Celeron CPU is a very low cost entry CPU and way below recommended Roon specs.

Besides this I don't see anything special about this server. There's a cheap PicoPSU ATX dc-dc converter powering the mainboard though they also separately power the CPU directly from the build in linear PSU. The PicoPSU also seems to power the optical drive and/or the SSD.

Can't see anything that warrants the claim of "ultra low noise USB outputs", looks like they're using the motherboard USB outputs and can't see any mods or specialist USB cards/circuitry.

Regarding the "dual isolated ethernet ports'...well duh! All regular ethernet ports have isolation built in. Again no special mods or hardware to be found except a pice of copper strip connecting the ports tomthe chassis.

Personally I think this is way overpriced and underpowered (hardware wise, don't know anything about the software) and would never buy/recommend it, not even to people who don't want to or can't build their own PC's.

Hi Antoine,

My name is Nuno Vitorino and I'm the R&D Director at Innuos. Just thought I'd provide a bit more information about the Zenith to help understand the design options we have made. We didn't choose our board or CPU because it's "very low cost" or "entry-level". Our philosophy is to minimise the power noise within the system and, consequently, to the USB / Ethernet outputs. The problems with using powerful CPUs (read Core i5 or Core i7 CPUs) for this architecture are twofold:

1. These CPUs produce a lot more power noise than the simpler Celeron CPUs;
2. These CPU's consume a lot more power that the Celeron CPUs.

Point 2 is particularly nasty as it would require the linear power supplies for the CPU  to provide a lot more current (note that the Zenith uses 3 linear power supplies - one for the CPU, one for the SSD and one for the remaining board). This would require using components on the LPSUs that are not as good as the ones being used on the Zenith's LPSU to provide more current. There would also more heat produced, which would affect the temperature of the entire system on a fanless system such as the Zenith. This is particularly true for the operation of regulators and clocks on the system.

By powering the CPU with a dedicated linear power supply and given the USB controller is within the CPU provides excellent results without requiring dedicated USB boards. There are, of course, lots of other tweaks at the firmware level on the board, on Linux Kernel and on the software player as well as a very specific Linear PSU architecture to get these results. This has puzzled many reviewers, who were sceptical at first - how come this system without OCXO clocks, SATA filters, RAM Filters, etc, etc, etc can actually sound this good? It's all about the synergy between the board, the linear power supplies, the firmware and the software. Using this hardware combination is a conscious design option, not a matter of reducing costs. We have tested dozens of boards on the oscilloscope (higher and lower-powered) and we could have easily used similar ones at a third of the price.

The ethernet ports on the Zenith are no ordinary Ethernet ports you find on normal "consumer-grade" boards. The ethernet ports have 4 separate isolation transformers each to further isolate the connection (4 small grey boxes right before each ethernet port). We also do extensive anti-vibration treatment of the chassis, the LPSU and even the SSD, converting vibration into very small amounts of heat. This makes a very audible difference in sound quality.

I do disagree with your view that the Zenith is overpriced. In fact, we have been "accused" several times that the server is too cheap and represents excellent value for money. I don't know any cheaper SSD-based music server at the level of a Zenith that you can buy at a hi-fi store. Considering most music servers on the market can't even run Roon Core, I wouldn't also call the Zenith "underpowered".

With regards to Roon, the CPU power is essentially required if you want to upsample your music to DSD128 or above. Other than that, it has been approved by Roon as perfectly competent for Roon duties - the Zenith has 8Gb RAM for this and the SSD helps immensely - the CPU isn't used much except for upsampling. Now, between using a faster (and noisier) CPU, noisier power supplies, a warmer system (I believe no audiophile would like to have a music server with fans on their system) and upsampling to DSD256 vs the Zenith playing direct CD quality or upsampling to PCM 384KHz, our view is that the cleaner system beats the benefits of the DSD upsampling.

One can argue that you can use a very powerful PC for running Roon Core and then use a separate Roon bridge device. However, some of the synergy does get lost this way, the total cost and complexity of the system is higher and it is debatable whether it would actually sound better as playing back from a network stream has its own influences on sound quality. Given sound quality is a very personal subject, I'd suggest customers having a Zenith to try the two scenarios and check which one they prefer:

1. Zenith working as Roon Core playing back at CD Quality or upsampled to 384KHz.
2. Zenith working as a Roon Bridge playing back upsampled DSD256 from a Roon server running on a PC somewhere on the network.

Anyway, Roon was integrated as an option with the Zenith to enable a simple one-box solution to having Roon with excellent sound quality. For Devialet owners, basically means one server connected via USB to their Devialet and they are up and running with an integrated Roon Server and Player solution with the added bonus of innuOS making it very easy to rip, import and backup your music library.

Hope this helps clarifying our approach.

Nuno
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#12
I was visting Innuos at the HighEnd 2017 and they had a quite interesting display were all their three products (Zen mini, Zen & Zenith) were plugged into identical Dacs (I think Benchmark) with identical USB cables and their were playing synchronously the same music and one could plug in a headphone cable alternating into these DACs to compare the different levels of servers. There was an obvious difference between these products and the Zenith was the best. Additional the was the Zenith SE announced which sounded even better (mostly better power supply). The main problem I have with it is that they are all USB out only and I think it is not the optimal connection mode to Devialet.
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#13
(21-May-2017, 16:38)Music or sound Wrote: I was visting Innuos at the HighEnd 2017 and they had a quite interesting display were all their three products (Zen mini, Zen & Zenith) were plugged into identical Dacs (I think Benchmark) with identical USB cables and their were playing synchronously the same music and one could plug in a headphone cable alternating into these DACs to compare the different levels of servers. There was an obvious difference between these products and the Zenith was the best. Additional the was the Zenith SE announced which sounded even better (mostly better power supply). The main problem I have with it is that they are all USB out only and I think it is not the optimal connection mode to Devialet.

Hi! Thanks for visiting us at High End. Basically what we have done there is connecting a Zen Mini, Zen and Zenith, all with the same Chord Company C-Series cables and all well run-in, to 3 Chord Hugo TT DACs via USB. We used a set output on each of the DACs so that they all provide the same fixed volume output. We then used Roon to sync the players on the Mini, Zen and Zenith and used DSP volume on Roon so that the same volume can be kept at the same level on all 3 systems. DSP volume isn't obvously the best option for Hi-Fi but the test is to highlight the differences in sound quality between the 3 systems. We try to demonstrate that even DACs with galvanic isolation on the USB can actually benefit from a much cleaner and well-timed USB output.

We do have customers reporting good results when using a Mutec MC-3+ USB Reclocker, connecting via USB to the Zenith and then via AES/EBU to the Devialet. At the moment, and due to a USB controller incompatibility that we are evaluating with Mutec, the Zenith does require a small unpowered USB Hub to be connected to the USB DAC port of the Zenith so the USB cable connects to the USB hub instead of the USB port on the Zenith. Anyway, may be a good option to try with the Devialet system and then compare to a direct USB connection.

Hope this helps.

Nuno Vitorino
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#14
[img][Image: 35998641561_68ce3c5538_c.jpg]IMG_20170724_094952 by Paul Kent, on Flickr[/img]
As Nuno has said, the Zen works well with the Mutec USB providing an XLR input into the Devialet. At his suggestion, because the Zen wouldn't recognize the Mutec, I installed an Amazon Basics USB hub and, even without it externally powered, everythjng started working. The Mutec recognizes and displays the different sound file frequencies so there are no restrictions in the system. I use the Orange Squeeze controller from a tablet and it is intuitive as J Rivers but without all the whistles & bells. I'm just waiting for a firmware update that will allow me to discard the USB hub to give one less step in the signal chain.
Innuos Zen, MUTEC MC-3 USB, Devialet Le 200, Usher Dancer 1 DMD
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#15
There is a nice review on DAR regarding the Innuos Zenith MkII SE.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/1...h-mkii-se/

Quote:A similar story played out with Devialet’s Expert 200 where performance delta daylight between the mirrorbox’s Roon Ready Ethernet input and the Zenith MKII SE (running as a Roon ready streamer) was even wider. The Devialet all-in-one really benefits from an uptick in audible richness wrought by the Innuos box.

Apparently it also gives improved SQ when compared to a direct Roon/AIR streaming. Now this got me thinking... Smile
Bluesound Node > Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 > Genelec 8351B & 7360A
Devialet 1000 Pro
Bluesound Node 2i > Genelec 8330
Tampere, Finland
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#16
Waouw! At least this is very clear review!
Innuos is bettering ROON/AIR , micro and ultrarendu.
With all the features like ripping, internal storage, it is a far better solution than say the dcs nb.
May be in the same league as aurender n10 but 5700€ is very expensive!


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#17
Zenith MkII would be more affordable (2700 euros with 1TB internal SSD), I wonder how it would compare with Roon/AIR or ultraRendu.

At least there are some reports on Naim forum that people have found it sounding better than Melco N1A.
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/stream...6361222353
Bluesound Node > Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 > Genelec 8351B & 7360A
Devialet 1000 Pro
Bluesound Node 2i > Genelec 8330
Tampere, Finland
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#18
I would advise a degree of caution reading too much into one review.  Take Darko's Devialet specific comment:

A similar story played out with Devialet’s Expert 200 where performance delta daylight between the mirrorbox’s Roon Ready Ethernet input and the Zenith MKII SE (running as a Roon ready streamer) was even wider. The Devialet all-in-one really benefits from an uptick in audible richness wrought by the Innuos box.

OK, seams clear enough, but this does remind me of my trials with various streamers with the Expert series.  As I have posted previously, better results could be achieved with streamers outputting AES/EBU versus USB into the Devialet. To me, this manifested itself most clearly with bass accuracy and definition (possibly jitter related phenomenon).  How noticeable this may be would be very dependant on the speaker used.  As an example, the Aurender N10 can output either USB or AES/EBU.  Into a Devialet it sounded superior via AES/EBU, but you could say that it sounded 'richer' via USB.  Depending on speakers or even personal preference, this could subjectively sound better.  My own microRendu via USB into an Expert sounded nominally 'bassier' than AIR, but it is not better defined bass compared to AIR.  The Aurender N10's bass via AES/EBU is more like AIR than the N10's bass via USB.  To be honest, the article does not really say that much, or at least nothing that specific,  with respect to sound quality, which is why I would advise caution reading too much into what Darko declares as better in one specific system.

As for the 5700€ cost, that may be worth it for someone wanting a single box all in one solution.  But there are arguably better ways to spend the cash.  As an example, the sound quality of AIR in the Pro series is significantly better than AIR with the Expert.  5700€ is enough for a Pro upgrade. (time will tell what the Core Infinity board brings to the equation) The Antipodes is worth looking at as an alternative if you want a single box solution with decent sound quality.  5700€ would also buy you a Mutec REF10, MC3+USB and something to feed it with.  OK, not a single box solution, but from a technical perspective if ultimate sound quality is your goal, I suspect this will be a significant level up from something like the Innuos
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#19
(05-Nov-2017, 11:52)Confused Wrote: I would advise a degree of caution reading too much into one review.

I totally agree with you. Unfortunately there aren't much reviews on single-box-solutions that can run Roon Server and have internal SSDs. I would like to have everything in one box, get rid of AIR streaming (because Devialet is not capable of getting the AIR work) and enjoy from great SQ.

I actually sent an email to Innuos couple days ago that would they recommend USB or Ethernet connection with Devialet and their opinion was clear:
"Running Roon server on the ZENith will benefit from its very sophisticated power supply that filters most of the mains, network and internal noise that can be clearly audible in critical listening. From our experience, the USB connection will deliver the best sound quality when connected your Devialet."

There aren't too many single box solutions available that can run Roon Server. We basically seems to have at least Innuos Zenith MkII and Zenith MkII SE, Antipodes DX, Bryston BDP-3 and of course the upcoming Roon Nucleus + LPSU. I guess the Core Infinity board cannot run the Roon Server.

The question is that which of these single-box-solutions sounds best with Devialet or at least better than AIR?
Bluesound Node > Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 > Genelec 8351B & 7360A
Devialet 1000 Pro
Bluesound Node 2i > Genelec 8330
Tampere, Finland
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#20
@ petrik, @ confused ...

+ 1 to your last comments and good going ...

we need much more investigation before plonking in the cash. I am following this with renewed enthusiasm !!    Smile
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