Having read a post where someone said they removed the tweeter cover to see if it sound better
All I can say is that you do it at your peril, and make sure you hold on damn tight to the grill!
It is held in place with a pretty bloody strong magnet - and while I was trying to place it back on (which is very fiddly and not at all apparent how to line it up) - I went to change the position in my fingers and lost my grip - and it literally jumped around 2-3 cms out of my hand and sideways onto the naked tweeter at some velocity
As if to rub it in - the Cold Play lyrics playing as I was checking for damage were "we never change do we" (from their only good album I hasten to add
)
Difference in sound off compared to on? ...... Don't be daft!
Finally got it back on - why do I do these things?!
Ouch! Thanks for the tip
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I was the one trying to remove the tweeter grill.
Didn't have any issue with the magnet since it was pretty obvious to me that if you put a piece of metal close to a speaker you better hold it tight. Sorry for not having mentioned that.
I hear a difference when you don't. That can happen.
I remember reading a post where you found A/V sync perfect when for me the lag is obvious.
Never thought that made you a daft.
(19-Oct-2015, 20:30)Jamington2004 Wrote: [ -> ]Having read a post where someone said they removed the tweeter cover to see if it sound better
All I can say is that you do it at your peril, and make sure you hold on damn tight to the grill!
It is held in place with a pretty bloody strong magnet - and while I was trying to place it back on (which is very fiddly and not at all apparent how to line it up) - I went to change the position in my fingers and lost my grip - and it literally jumped around 2-3 cms out of my hand and sideways onto the naked tweeter at some velocity
As if to rub it in - the Cold Play lyrics playing as I was checking for damage were "we never change do we" (from their only good album I hasten to add )
Difference in sound off compared to on? ...... Don't be daft!
Finally got it back on - why do I do these things?!
(19-Oct-2015, 22:33)Phs Wrote: [ -> ]I remember reading a post where you found A/V sync perfect when for me the lag is obvious.
Never thought that made you a daft.
Well, that depends on the TV processing. He could have no lag, and you could have a lot. Just because you don't have the same TV.
Some TV processes the video signal quickly, other very slowly. So it's not quite the same thing...
(but I understand perfectly what you are saying)
(19-Oct-2015, 20:30)Jamington2004 Wrote: [ -> ]while I was trying to place it back on (which is very fiddly and not at all apparent how to line it up)
It's actually not that complicated (I removed the grilles today for some cleaning), there is a small "roundish" thing on the side that goes down.
Yes you are right
fgueho, depending on TV video processing time and also chosen audio/video signal path, the perceived delay can be different.
As you understood I was more using this post as an example on how we should accept different situations and point of view to be shared
Phantom has an inherent delay which - although not so convenient - I accept gladly because it is actually the price to pay for both the fantastic audio performance and the wireless operation.
- Phantom great sound comes from extensive use of DSP algorithms, and these things take time to process. On professional audio workstations the delay is indicated for each algorithm you use, and the rule is "better they are, longer they take", which make sense in a way
- The wireless Dialog/Phantom operation involves back and forward streaming between devices which again - to be solid and play in sync - requires buffering. This takes time too.
I did measure the delay in May, it was in the ballpark of 220 ms. Since then it has been reduced. My last measurement was around 190 ms. We can hope that Devialet - doing some code and buffering optimisation - can further reduce that. I've seen delay reduced by 50% on some pro DSP devices after they spent enough time on the issue.
For now - depending on your audio and video path - as well as TV video processing time - the perceived sync will vary, although Phantom will probably always be late :
- Best case = sending HDMI to TV and optical to Phantom directly from the source device ( receiver, Bluray, XBox ...) to a hopefully slow processing TV
- Worst case = streaming Netflix or Youtube directly from a smart TV and sending the optical out of TV to Phantom/dialog
(19-Oct-2015, 22:50)fgueho Wrote: [ -> ] (19-Oct-2015, 22:33)Phs Wrote: [ -> ]I remember reading a post where you found A/V sync perfect when for me the lag is obvious.
Never thought that made you a daft.
Well, that depends on the TV processing. He could have no lag, and you could have a lot. Just because you don't have the same TV.
Some TV processes the video signal quickly, other very slowly. So it's not quite the same thing...
(but I understand perfectly what you are saying)
[/quote]
(19-Oct-2015, 22:33)EPhs Wrote: [ -> ]I was the one trying to remove the tweeter grill.
Didn't have any issue with the magnet since it was pretty obvious to me that if you put a piece of metal close to a speaker you better hold it tight. Sorry for not having mentioned that.
I hear a difference when you don't. That can happen.
I remember reading a post where you found A/V sync perfect when for me the lag is obvious.
Never thought that made you a daft.
Sorry PHS I didn't mean to offend - ''twas a very tongue in cheek comment
Just makes me laugh that I even try these things in my desperate attempts to find the perfect sound, even when I have gone for the non tweakable one box solution to get away from all that....IMHO....nonsense
Could you honestly do the blind test with them off or on and tell the difference?
I was reading some interesting stuff about short term memory recently and saw an experiment where someone was shown a simple thing to remember like 3 letters. Then given a maths quiz to prevent them pushing it to long term memory. 1 minute later they couldn't remember the letters
So can "we" really remember something as complex as the signature of a sound from 1 minute to the other when comparing, or is it all in the mind?
If we can then great - if it sounds better in our heads, then it is better. I just wonder how much is pyscological with side by side tests that have a gap in between?
And yes - I am very daft for not realising the grill could launch out of my hands like that..... So just trying to warn fellow daftees
I agree audio impressions remains always very subjective, you always tend to hear what you see, and blind test with a panel of trained ears followed by statistic analysis is the only way. This is how it is done at EBU to evaluate audio algorithms. (see
here )
My own experience doing A/B tests is that you get a better analysis doing longer listening sessions of test tracks, than quick A/B switching. This is in par with the article you quote.
The fact that you can never compare audio side by side - as you can do with a print - is probably part of its mysterious intangible beauty.
I've been playing that game many times in the studio, and everyone being truly honest about it has to admit that you get fooled more than once. For example that day when you add a tiny bit of EQ to that guitar and are so pleased with the result ... until you realize that you turned the button on the wrong channel of the mixing desk
Another interesting thing I tried with a couple of sound engineers was to compare how you'd set up an EQ on one track with or without looking at the actual EQ curve on the screen. Well guess what, when we could look at the curve, we all did it different. Obviously influenced by how the curve looked to our eyes
I'll keep you posted if I ever try a serious blind test, but I tend to get lazy these days since I happily ditched my high efficiency horn active DIY setup in favor of Phantom.
Removing that grid was probably the only tweak left ... I couldn't help trying
(20-Oct-2015, 12:21)Jamington2004 Wrote: [ -> ] (19-Oct-2015, 22:33)EPhs Wrote: [ -> ]I was the one trying to remove the tweeter grill.
Didn't have any issue with the magnet since it was pretty obvious to me that if you put a piece of metal close to a speaker you better hold it tight. Sorry for not having mentioned that.
I hear a difference when you don't. That can happen.
I remember reading a post where you found A/V sync perfect when for me the lag is obvious.
Never thought that made you a daft.
Sorry PHS I didn't mean to offend - ''twas a very tongue in cheek comment
Just makes me laugh that I even try these things in my desperate attempts to find the perfect sound, even when I have gone for the non tweakable one box solution to get away from all that....IMHO....nonsense
Could you honestly do the blind test with them off or on and tell the difference?
I was reading some interesting stuff about short term memory recently and saw an experiment where someone was shown a simple thing to remember like 3 letters. Then given a maths quiz to prevent them pushing it to long term memory. 1 minute later they couldn't remember the letters
So can "we" really remember something as complex as the signature of a sound from 1 minute to the other when comparing, or is it all in the mind?
If we can then great - if it sounds better in our heads, then it is better. I just wonder how much is pyscological with side by side tests that have a gap in between?
And yes - I am very daft for not realising the grill could launch out of my hands like that..... So just trying to warn fellow daftees
(20-Oct-2015, 13:02)Phs Wrote: [ -> ]I agree audio impressions remains always very subjective, you always tend to hear what you see, and blind test with a panel of trained ears followed by statistic analysis is the only way. This is how it is done at EBU to evaluate audio algorithms. (see here )
My own experience doing A/B tests is that you get a better analysis doing longer listening sessions of test tracks, than quick A/B switching. This is in par with the article you quote.
The fact that you can never compare audio side by side - as you can do with a print - is probably part of its mysterious intangible beauty.
I've been playing that game many times in the studio, and everyone being truly honest about it has to admit that you get fooled more than once. For example that day when you add a tiny bit of EQ to that guitar and are so pleased with the result ... until you realize that you turned the button on the wrong channel of the mixing desk
Another interesting thing I tried with a couple of sound engineers was to compare how you'd set up an EQ on one track with or without looking at the actual EQ curve on the screen. Well guess what, when we could look at the curve, we all did it different. Obviously influenced by how the curve looked to our eyes
I'll keep you posted if I ever try a serious blind test, but I tend to get lazy these days since I happily ditched my high efficiency horn active DIY setup in favor of Phantom.
Removing that grid was probably the only tweak left ... I couldn't help trying
Really interesting to hear the honest opinion of a professional.....I find it intriguing, and I guess its how Hifi Manufacturers get away with so much foo. The better safe than sorry effect
I see your point on longer tests - but then the longer it goes, the more other factors could come into it? Things sound different for me depending on my state of mind / weather / day of the week etc....... so how can we eliminate these factors?
Tricks of the ear I guess are the same as tricks of the eye, only maybe in reverse........ where you swear you didn't see something but it was pretty glaringly obvious. Our brains just dont always process the image as we would expect. A la - "There is definitely no milk in the fridge love.....come and look for yourself if you like?"......."Oh......."
Anyway - thanks for the anecdotes and glad we are still friends
The trick is that we have grown up as a specie to detect patterns and differences. Our survival was predicated to those detections and therefore, as a result, our brain is more inclined to tell us that there is a difference than not!