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Full Version: Is AIR getting better in the Pro era? Thoughts of little steps.....
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After trying 'Roon AIR', then briefly 'old' AIR 3.04 at the weekend, I have found myself thinking (danger!!) rather a lot about the slightly unexpected result.  As I posted at the time, 'Roon AIR' was rather good, and the difference to my normal HQPlayer/mR/Mutec was very much smaller than I was expecting.

So lets go back in time, I used to use AIR regularly, I wanted a better 'front end', I tried many things with the D800.  The Aurender N10/W20 and others sounded great, but for reasons posted elsewhere in this forum I ended up with a microRendu and Mutec MC3+USB.  Here is the thing though, thinking back I can recall trying the mR/Mutec combo vs AIR2, and although I found AIR to be very good, it was relatively easy to discern the sound quality improvements offered by the mR/Mutec combo.

So back to today, the difference between AIR and the mR/Mutec combo has shrunk dramatically, so what has changed?  OK, maybe I've gone deaf or maybe I'm imagining it all, but lets assume not for now, I have some theories.

Firstly the easy one, many have reported that AIR3 sounds better than AIR2, so that is one small step closing the gap.

Then we have the fact that AIR is an asynchronous protocol, so the computer is sending packets of 'music' data to the Devialet, the Devialet buffers the data, and somewhere in the land of 'magic wire' and ADH the data is clocked by the Devialet.  This differs a little the XLR/AES3 input of the Devialet used by the Mutec, where there is a clock signal in the AES3 feed, and the Devialet needs to 'extract' this signal.  Here my knowledge of exactly how the Devialet does this is a little lacking, I'm not sure the Devialet relies 100% on the clock in the feed, and once talking to someone from Devialet I was advised the quality of the feed clock is not that important, subsequently I and others have found that the clock quality of the feed is vey important, but exactly what the relation between the feed clock and the Devialet clock actually is, I am not sure.  (If anyone knows for sure, please let me know!)

Anyway, so much waffle above, here is another theory.  I suspect the clock in the 'Pro' is higher performance than in the Expert.  There is no reason why not in fact, audio clocks have been getting both better and cheaper recently, so you would expect the Pro clock to be better, later, tech.  So having a better clock means that the 'asynchronous' performance of AIR will be better, and maybe the AES3 feed clock to Devialet clock extraction does not benefit as much as AIR can from the Pro improved clock, another little step closing the gap for AIR.  In a related observation, I and others have posted subjective observations that the USB input on the Pro is relatively better than that in the Expert.  Other have stated that the USB board is unchanged in the Pro.  Maybe both are true, and the observed improvement in the USB input is due to improved asynchronous clocking.  Personally I have observed that bass accuracy in the Pro via USB is improved, a classic result of improved clocking perhaps?

The final theory for now (I might just think of another one later!), is the benefit of AIR integration into Roon.  The 'virtual soundcard' part of the process is removed, Roon can engineer the their software to talk directly to Devialet AIR protocol.  I do not know enough about this process to state exactly why this should be better, but I am speculating that it is at least possible that this can offer an improvement.  Maybe Roon have made other tweaks related to clocks, timing in the computer OS or something else, who knows.  Surly there is some scope for optimisation here?  Anyway, all of this offers yet another small step in the sound quality of AIR versus the rivals like the Mutec.

If you then take all these little steps and add them together, one Saturday morning some bod tries 'Roon AIR' versus something else, thinking the differences will be fairly easy to spot, but those little steps have added up, and suddenly those easy to spot differences have become very tiny little things that are surprisingly hard to find.

I will be honest, there is much speculation and subjective observation in the above, but I am entirely serious in what I am trying to say and would be interested if anyone can offer any thoughts, observations or technical know how to add to, or indeed debunk, the above.
Very good observations. After hearing Roon AIR for couple of days, I was thinking of putting my Mutec and SMS-200/LPS1 for sale. I have read your questions and contributions over at CA forum. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences and thoughts. We all benefit from it.
I hope someone from Devialet can shed some light on how they use the clock and whether using something like Mutec Ref10 can improve the sound substantially.
(20-Jul-2017, 06:51)sam1000 Wrote: [ -> ]After hearing Roon AIR for couple of days, I was thinking of putting my Mutec and SMS-200/LPS1 for sale.

So Roon AIR betters the Mutec/SMS-200 in your system?
So far I still think Mutec/microRendu is better in my system. That might change as I just started optimizing setup for ethernet. I started out with the same (Roon) setup for AIR and microRendu to reduce variables, but this may not be the best with AIR.
(19-Jul-2017, 21:26)Confused Wrote: [ -> ]and suddenly those easy to spot differences have become very tiny little things that are surprisingly hard to find.

I think your thoughts on this are very good! I have now listened to Roon AIR for several days. I'll switch back tonight to check. I did switch back to mR/Mutec briefely some days ago and found I liked it better, but that could also be a "back to what I'm used to" thing as I've had the mR/Mutec combo unchanged for months.

I do believe that AIR streaming has an advantage in that it bypasses SPDIF/AES/USB. The asynchronous transfer and clocking inside the amp is important. The quality of clocks (and clocking!)  is vital. This is probably where Mutec is better. As I've said in a different thread: if the new Core Infinity board has a properly implemented re-clocker there is a small revolution on it's way!
Yes, clocking appears to be the hot topic at the moment, and in terms of clocking everyone seams to be very excited about the Mutec REF10 currently, I shall be quietly observing reviews and user reports now the first ones are being delivered to customers. I do occasionally have radical thoughts about using an SOtM clock board and Mutec REF10 to clock Devialet's ADH! To difficult though, I think, plus I would not want to be the first person to try it.

This leaves the more practical question, how would a Devialet perform with a super clocked AES3 feed, say a REF10 clocked Mutec MC3+USB. I'm sure someone will try this before too long.

Whilst trying to be practical and re-join the real world for a moment, it is perhaps worth mentioning that I have been running a mR / Mutec front end for about a year now. I quite often switch the mR between the various modes, NAA / DLNA / Shairport etc.. With the Sonicorbiter software manager app selector on the PC, this is hardly different to selecting input buttons on a pre-amp, it just works. Plus, over the last year it has been 100% stable, no drop-outs, stutters, strange noises or anything else. That counts for a lot!
(20-Jul-2017, 12:26)ogs Wrote: [ -> ]I'll switch back tonight to check.

In my (humble) opinion you'd be well worth doing it blind. You might find it harder than you think to tell which is which. You might not of course, but my brief RoonAIR v digiOne blind test was very illuminating.
(20-Jul-2017, 12:55)Confused Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, clocking appears to be the hot topic at the moment, and in terms of clocking everyone seams to be very excited about the Mutec REF10 currently, I shall be quietly observing reviews and user reports now the first ones are being delivered to customers.  I do occasionally have radical thoughts about using an SOtM clock board and Mutec REF10 to clock Devialet's ADH!  To difficult though, I think, plus I would not want to be the first person to try it.

This leaves the more practical question, how would a Devialet perform with a super clocked AES3 feed, say a REF10 clocked Mutec MC3+USB.  I'm sure someone will try this before too long.

Whilst trying to be practical and re-join the real world for a moment, it is perhaps worth mentioning that I have been running a mR / Mutec front end for about a year now.  I quite often switch the mR between the various modes, NAA / DLNA / Shairport etc..  With the Sonicorbiter software manager app selector on the PC, this is hardly different to selecting input buttons on a pre-amp, it just works.  Plus, over the last year it has been 100% stable, no drop-outs, stutters, strange noises or anything else.  That counts for a lot!

To really benefit from a Mutec REF 10 on the ADH the Devialet must have a word clock input and internal circuitry to deal with it - which it doesn't. I do not know the Expert architecture well enough to know if this is possible. A REF 10 on the MC3+USB on the other hand is a real possibility. Will probably sound very good!

And yes, the stability of the mR is top class! I must admit though that I am tempted by Roon AIR for functionality. Next test for me will be the Allo DigiOne. Maybe this is better in front of the Mutec using SPDIF rather than USB from mR?
(20-Jul-2017, 13:55)Hifi_swlon Wrote: [ -> ]In my (humble) opinion you'd be well worth doing it blind. You might find it harder than you think to tell which is which. You might not of course, but my brief RoonAIR v digiOne blind test was very illuminating.

Last time I checked this the difference was quite clear. I hope I get some time this evening.... the switch over is quick, but listening will take some time Smile
(20-Jul-2017, 14:25)ogs Wrote: [ -> ]
(20-Jul-2017, 12:55)Confused Wrote: [ -> ] I do occasionally have radical thoughts about using an SOtM clock board and Mutec REF10 to clock Devialet's ADH!  To difficult though, I think, plus I would not want to be the first person to try it.

To really benefit from a Mutec REF 10 on the ADH the Devialet must have a word clock input and internal circuitry to deal with it - which it doesn't. I do not know the Expert architecture well enough to know if this is possible.

Indeed, clearly the Devialet does not have a word clock input.  However, I believe it would be possible, using say a Mutec REF10 and something like SOtM's sCLK-EX.

https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/englis...m/sclk-ex/

You are right though, you would need intimate knowledge of the Expert / ADH architecture, clocking systems, as well as being very brave and having a steady hand with a soldering iron.  In real world practical terms, I will not be doing it!  I doubt anyone ever will not be honest.  You never know though.
(20-Jul-2017, 13:55)Hifi_swlon Wrote: [ -> ]
(20-Jul-2017, 12:26)ogs Wrote: [ -> ]I'll switch back tonight to check.

In my (humble) opinion you'd be well worth doing it blind. You might find it harder than you think to tell which is which. You might not of course, but my brief RoonAIR v digiOne blind test was very illuminating.

Blind tests, or even better double blind tests are most of the times big eye openers  Cool 

Jean-Marie
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