(22-Feb-2016, 23:41)Hifi_swlon Wrote: [ -> ]What am I missing here - I've seen this 'cascaded' or 'in-series' purifiers/re-clockers scenario mentioned across various forums and with various devices.
So are we now saying USB signals need to be galvanically isolated, re-clocked, and regenerated, but not only that - put through this sequence multiple times (surely with each powered with a linear PS) and then either connected using expensive cables between each, or hard adapters (with the boxes strung out in a line across your living room) to stand any chance of getting the USB data from source to destination intact, or rather 'pure'?
I wasn't sceptical until I tried a Regen, but then again I did feel I got a much better sound from an Aurender. But now I'm not sure what to make if it all. It seems each time someone comes up with a way to 'perfect' a digital signal, along comes someone else to say it's still not quite right!
And wouldn't it be better if these devices simply iterated through their own mechanism a few times internally before spitting it out the other end if they can only do a % of what needed in one pass? Or that the final receiver was instead just sent an error corrected data set that it then does all this to internally? I guess I'm probably missing something again.
I get more and more confused with digital audio. In the rest of the world in telecoms etc digital is simple and has revolutionised how we worked previously with analogue. It's 1's and 0's and if the devices are up to spec they work, and if not they often don't. Huge cloud computing centres don't have to agonise about how perfect their 1's and 0's are, not in the way us audio folk have to. I know the USB audio transport is a different beast, but somehow just transferring digital data's become a huge deal; from jitter, to clocking, to subatomic reflections, vibration, power supply noise, cable skin effects - it's carnage for the poor little bits to get any sound data delivered anywhere without going all wobbly. What's gone wrong?
I genuinely really want to get a decent digital source and make improvements to my setup, but I seem to just get more and more confused about what the issue is. Is it just me?
I'm not sure you missed anything. There is no 'Graal' which would be the best solution. I guess that everyone is trying to refine its source in order to get a better experience.
As far as USB is concerned, the first 2 steps (galvanic isolation and signal regeneration) have to be performed once. There are various devices to do this, like the Intona for the galvanic isolation or the Regen you mentioned for the regeneration. Then you get a digital signal, which can be reclocked, for further improvement. And this stage of reclocking is not specific to USB, but could be operated on other digital sources (AES or S-P/DIF). And this stage of reclocking can be done multiple times (metaphor of the door) in order to improve the efficiency.
In order to do that, you can use a d1-reclocker from Totaldac, or a Mutec MC-3+USB ; please note that the Mutec also includes the galvanic isolation on its USB input. And you can stack 2 x MC-3+ USB in order to have 2 stages of reclocking.
You mention the possibility for one box to make it twice ; the AFIS of Acousence, which costs approximately the price of 2 Mutec MC-3+ USB, includes 2 PLLs in order to reclock twice inside one box.
You should also acknowledge that these improvements are quite new in the Audiophile field. If the necessity to use a high precision master clock has been largely accepted in the studio industry, the idea to use a more precise clock in order to improve the audio signal is quite recent and the industry is boiling with new techniques/solutions.
Let's see what innovation is bringing to us, and what we accept to have in our our homes and appreciate to listen to.
As far as I'm concerned, I have 2 Mutec-3+ USB stacked. I am very happy with that and I do not contemplate the necessity to have more. I am still waiting for Mutec to release a better clock later this year, in order to see if I can hear a difference. But I am very happy as I am.
Hope this helps.
Great clarifying post Our, I fully agree.
Also thanks for clarifying your earlier post. I did indeed misunderstand you.
Downside of the Mutec is that it of course needs it's own power cable and "digital" interconnect. Thus far I've used the supplied power cable but I'd like that to be shielded one especially since there's a SMPS inside the Mutec. (Yes, I know there's one inside the Devialet as well.
)
The digital interconnect I'm using is the Sommer Binary AES/EBU cable the dealer gave me for free with the Mutec.
Today I have ordered a LH Labs D-110 AES/EBU cable to experiment with. It seems to be a very affordable but great all-rounder and although I would love to have a Transparant Reference XL or a MIT Oracle MA-X I'm not prepared to pay anywhere near the asking price of those cables. The DH Labs will become either a stayer or a start in a quest for a perhaps even better one, like a Kimber Orchid, Oyaide AR-910 etc. I have to do more 'research' and/or listening tests.
Also ordered two additional affordable, no-nonsense Belden 19364 based power cables and an affordable shielded power distributor with the same Belden power cable to replace the plastic Ikea one I've plugged into the PS Audio P3 now (I needed an extra outlet for the Mutec but unfortunately had none left).
(25-Feb-2016, 18:51)Antoine Wrote: [ -> ]Downside of the Mutec is that it of course needs it's own power cable and "digital" interconnect. Thus far I've used the supplied power cable but I'd like that to be shielded one especially since there's a SMPS inside the Mutec. (Yes, I know there's one inside the Devialet as well. )
The digital interconnect I'm using is the Sommer Binary AES/EBU cable the dealer gave me for free with the Mutec.
Today I have ordered a LH Labs D-110 AES/EBU cable to experiment with. It seems to be a very affordable but great all-rounder and although I would love to have a Transparant Reference XL or a MIT Oracle MA-X I'm not prepared to pay anywhere near the asking price of those cables. The DH Labs will become either a stayer or a start in a quest for a perhaps even better one, like a Kimber Orchid, Oyaide AR-910 etc. I have to do more 'research' and/or listening tests.
Also ordered two additional affordable, no-nonsense Belden 19364 based power cables and an affordable shielded power distributor with the same Belden power cable to replace the plastic Ikea one I've plugged into the PS Audio P3 now (I needed an extra outlet for the Mutec but unfortunately had none left).
Hi Antoine,
Are you still using the Intona together with your Mutec ? Have you noticed any interest in this combination ?
Hi Our, nope not using the Intona at the moment as unfortunately it doesn't work (yet). (See also:
http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?t...5#pid35295)
In the meantime I've been in contact with Daniel of Intona and I will send my Intona back to Germany in about two to three weeks for a firmware upgrade. They already have a fix for the MC-3+ since the beginning of February (mine is sent to me January 8th) but are working on some more fixes for other hardware like the Berkely Alpha and the Mutec MC1.2 so Daniel advised me to wait for those as well before sending it back, if I wasn't in a hurry, which I am not.
Of course I'm not sure yet if the Intona will improve things further, or not, but at least I'd like to try. I can always sell later.
Earlier I wrote the step up from Regen go Intona seemed a greater one then the step up from Intona to Mutec MC-3+ USB. I was wrong, very wrong!
This became very clear after listening more and with the introduction of the DH Labs D-110 AES/EBU interlink.
Tonally things are similar although the Mutec gives a far greater extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum. The really big step up though is in increased resolution, so an effortless retrieval/portrayal of so much more 'information' from all recordings I throw at it, good or bad, without creating a clinical representation. It's rather the opposite, there's more sophistication, the musical message comes trough clearer with it. Again (trust me, it has happened so many times before) I am amazed at how much more information was still buried under a layer of "noise"/ a veil or whatever I should call it. It's the noise/a veil, again, I did not know that was there until it's gone. I'm sure it's not a 'trick' it performs as the changes are consistent over the whole frequency range, not e.g. just the highs/treble.
All the usual parameters (like mentioned here:
http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?t...5#pid33575) have improved as well. Most noticably soundstage portrayal in all dimensions. Risk of fatigue I didn't mention back then was never a real issue in my system however I can now easily listen at even higher volume (poor neighbours
) than before if I like to be energized for example.
As always it's hard to imagine further possible improvements but I'm still planning to try the Intona in front of the Mutec after it's had it's firmware upgrade at the factory. First I am in need for a pause of changing anything. The new powercords I mention are also installed so for now I am done and ready to enjoy nothing but the music again.
Bits are bits, digital is easy to do right? Yeah, sure, so wrong!
(28-Feb-2016, 17:25)Antoine Wrote: [ -> ]Earlier I wrote the step up from Regen go Intona seemed a greater one then the step up from Intona to Mutec MC-3+ USB. I was wrong, very wrong! This became very clear after listening more and with the introduction of the DH Labs D-110 AES/EBU interlink.
Tonally things are similar although the Mutec gives a far greater extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum. The really big step up though is in increased resolution, so an effortless retrieval/portrayal of so much more 'information' from all recordings I throw at it, good or bad, without creating a clinical representation. It's rather the opposite, there's more sophistication, the musical message comes trough clearer with it. Again (trust me, it has happened so many times before) I am amazed at how much more information was still buried under a layer of "noise"/ a veil or whatever I should call it. It's the noise/a veil, again, I did not know that was there until it's gone. I'm sure it's not a 'trick' it performs as the changes are consistent over the whole frequency range, not e.g. just the highs/treble.
All the usual parameters (like mentioned here: http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?t...5#pid33575) have improved as well. Most noticably soundstage portrayal in all dimensions. Risk of fatigue I didn't mention back then was never a real issue in my system however I can now easily listen at even higher volume (poor neighbours ) than before if I like to be energized for example.
As always it's hard to imagine further possible improvements but I'm still planning to try the Intona in front of the Mutec after it's had it's firmware upgrade at the factory. First I am in need for a pause of changing anything. The new powercords I mention are also installed so for now I am done and ready to enjoy nothing but the music again.
Bits are bits, digital is easy to do right? Yeah, sure, so wrong!
Very happy to share these listening impressions with you :-)
(28-Feb-2016, 17:25)Antoine Wrote: [ -> ]Earlier I wrote the step up from Regen go Intona seemed a greater one then the step up from Intona to Mutec MC-3+ USB. I was wrong, very wrong! This became very clear after listening more and with the introduction of the DH Labs D-110 AES/EBU interlink.
Tonally things are similar although the Mutec gives a far greater extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum. The really big step up though is in increased resolution, so an effortless retrieval/portrayal of so much more 'information' from all recordings I throw at it, good or bad, without creating a clinical representation. It's rather the opposite, there's more sophistication, the musical message comes trough clearer with it. Again (trust me, it has happened so many times before) I am amazed at how much more information was still buried under a layer of "noise"/ a veil or whatever I should call it. It's the noise/a veil, again, I did not know that was there until it's gone. I'm sure it's not a 'trick' it performs as the changes are consistent over the whole frequency range, not e.g. just the highs/treble.
All the usual parameters (like mentioned here: http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?t...5#pid33575) have improved as well. Most noticably soundstage portrayal in all dimensions. Risk of fatigue I didn't mention back then was never a real issue in my system however I can now easily listen at even higher volume (poor neighbours ) than before if I like to be energized for example.
As always it's hard to imagine further possible improvements but I'm still planning to try the Intona in front of the Mutec after it's had it's firmware upgrade at the factory. First I am in need for a pause of changing anything. The new powercords I mention are also installed so for now I am done and ready to enjoy nothing but the music again.
Bits are bits, digital is easy to do right? Yeah, sure, so wrong!
OK, so, after re-reading all these posts and thinking through the discussion in the 'whats wrong with digital' thread - where I reached my own conclusions that I can live with - something strange happened…...
….I started hovering over the 'buy' link on a Mutec MC-3+ USB on a German website, noting that it has a 30 day return policy.
Save me from myself……..
(OK, I've pulled myself together… for now.... I'm intrigued and want to hear for myself, but it doesn't fit my mission profile so I've closed the page. That was a close call.)