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+--- Thread: upgrade is back (/Thread-upgrade-is-back)
RE: upgrade is back - RebelMan - 07-Aug-2018
(07-Aug-2018, 10:05)thumb5 Wrote:(07-Aug-2018, 09:41)RebelMan Wrote:(06-Aug-2018, 11:34)thumb5 Wrote: By the way, it's interesting to read what a well-regarded amplifier designer says about how much power is needed to drive typical speakers to "normal" listening levels without distortion when playing music. For example:
I reviewed the article but found nothing of which that was foreign to me. It bears pointing out that the author was overly simplistic with some of his comments. Since I have no desire to discuss circuit theory in this thread I will limit my response to the quote you provided and the inferences you are suggesting.
First of all speakers are not simply resistive loads. They are complex impedance devices and their thirst for power is driven by variations of frequency and volume over time. Since power is a product of BOTH voltage and current, clipping an amplifier can occur when EITHER one of these are in short supply. In general, an amplifier that can output high levels of voltage but low levels of current will be weaker than an amplifier that can output low levels of voltage but high levels of current (proportionately speaking of course).
For example, if Amplifier A can output 500 watts into an 8 ohm load and 500 watts into a 4 ohm load it will be weaker then Amplifier B that can output 250 watts into an 8 ohm load and 500 watts into a 4 ohm load. Since impedance varies with time and the input signal, Amplifier B is better equipped (built) to follow the impedance curve of the speaker. As the impedance of the speaker varies the output of Amplifier B will follow in proportion to the demands placed on it, we call this linear behavior. Under the same circumstances, Amplifier A is less equipped to follow the impedance curve of the speaker. In this case as the demand of the speaker varies the output of Amplifier A will still follow but not in proportion to the demands placed on it, we call this non-linear behavior.
Devialet amplifiers are built with stiff voltage rails and therefore are very linear designs. They are quite capable of driving 2 ohm loads which covers the vast majority of loudspeakers people are likely to own.
For the author to say that that a 500 watt amplifier is necessary to drive a 90dB sensitive speaker (without clipping) and then exclude all the details about the setting from which he makes his conclusion is GROSSLY misleading.
The point about clipping and the surprisingly high power levels required to avoid it is fundamentally not about linearity. Rather it's due to the difference between test signals (sinusoids) and music signals which typically have a high crest factor. As the article points out, this can be observed quite easily by a simple experiment - and obviously Mr Sanders has done so - which leads to his conclusion which I quoted.
Anyway, that may be a moot point; I highlighted the article to point out that there are sound, objective reasons why more power can improve audio fidelity due to factors that are not obvious from a naive analysis. Indeed Mathieu Pernot agrees, stating "infinite power is the ideal". If you choose to disagree with him, and Mr Sanders, that's your perogative of course.
It's precisely about linearity because his whole premise is about signals clipping and under what circumstances. He makes many assumptions and leaves the details out. He also has an agenda to sell equipment. A more famous Nelson Pass sees it quite differently but he also has an agenda. Tit for tat.
RE: upgrade is back - RebelMan - 07-Aug-2018
(07-Aug-2018, 10:11)thumb5 Wrote:You have now lost focus, Ian. LOL(07-Aug-2018, 09:58)RebelMan Wrote:(06-Aug-2018, 12:02)thumb5 Wrote: There can be absolutely nothing to say about "sound quality" unless people are involved. Otherwise, you're talking about objective measurements, be they of voltage, current, air pressure fluctuations, etc.You are losing focus, Ian.
Let me consisely reiterate ...
Each model of the Expert series produces the same sound quality.
Each model of the Expert Pro series produces the same sound quality.
The Expert Pro series may sound better than the Expert series but it is subtle at best.
The sound quality of EACH SERIES was not VOICED, it was cooked up in a lab using OBJECTIVE measurements only.
You can reiterate as much as you like, but you're still stating a subjective, personal opinion (about "sound quality" as opposed to objective data) that has no more validity than anyone else's opinion.
If you replaced the phrase "sound quality" in your statements above with "measurements" then we would be in agreement.
It's not a personal opinion. Lets use your earlier analogy with cars. Let's say two cars roll off the assembly line. Lets also say that both cars are identical in every way except in horse power. Now, lets say that they are both driving at 60 miles per hour. Is the ride quality any different? Of course not.
Now lets say both cars are driving at 150 miles per hour. Is the ride quality any different now? Well if the top speed of one car is 149 MPH and the other 200 MPH then there is going to be a difference. But how often are you driving 150 MPH? It's not my opinion that the cars were engineer that way, they just were. Likewise, it's not my opinion that the Devialet's were engineered their way either, they just were.
RE: upgrade is back - thumb5 - 07-Aug-2018
Nope, still quite focused here.
I doubt the discussion is going anywhere of interest so nothing more for me to say at this point. Sorry for dragging it out.
RE: upgrade is back - Vivialet - 07-Aug-2018
(07-Aug-2018, 09:40)Amelot75 Wrote:(07-Aug-2018, 08:25)Vivialet Wrote: for the initial 4000€ (800 to 1000pro) the update was a bargain for me. Now it costs 8000€, not sure if I would still update now...
Pro CI is clearly better and maybe there will be other enhancements in the future, but this is a lot of money...
Does the upgrade include the CI board? I’m still with D800 & D400 and definitely the upgrade will stay as an option regarding my systems
it was included in the initial update offer and it is included in the new update offer. But now at a much higher price.
RE: upgrade is back - sven911 - 07-Aug-2018
End 2016 the upgrade from 800 to 1000 was Eur 6.000, there was a discount of Eur 2.000 only if a 800 was bought till 6 months before programme started. In this price the CI board was included.
RE: upgrade is back - Vivialet - 07-Aug-2018
My first Devialet was an early D-Premier, upgraded to 250, the second Devialet was a demo unit which was upgraded by the dealer, but more than 1 year before the pro update was available. And I have only payed 4000€.
RE: upgrade is back - MrJellyLord - 08-Aug-2018
When I went to buy my Devialet, I could not hear any substantial difference between the 120 and 200 amp.
Later, we compared the 120 with the new 220pro, but could not hear any substantial differences there either (some preferred the 120).
So rebelman confirms my own (limited) listening experiences.
RE: upgrade is back - Flashman - 08-Aug-2018
I purchased my Devialet 170 (at the time) when I was living and working in France. I was really pleased with the form and function and loved the firmware updates (especially turning a 170 to a 200). In particular, I really appreciated SAM and used it on my initial set of speakers -- Atohm GT1s -- and now my current set of speakers -- Vivid Oval 1.5s. What really annoyed me and many others were the problems with AIR. Fortunately, Roon solved that problem and transformed my listening experience and pleasure. I've decided not to upgrade to the Pro series, however, as -- for me -- the cost is prohibitive. I don't believe I will gain much in SQ and the lure of further Devialet innovations is not that enticing. At the end of the day, there are lots of innovations in the amp/streaming space so I may stay with my current set-up or go in a different direction. I will continue to hang out on Devialet Chat, though, to see what's happening!
RE: upgrade is back - Stino - 08-Aug-2018
(08-Aug-2018, 12:06)MrJellyLord Wrote: When I went to buy my Devialet, I could not hear any substantial difference between the 120 and 200 amp.
Later, we compared the 120 with the new 220pro, but could not hear any substantial differences there either (some preferred the 120).
So rebelman confirms my own (limited) listening experiences.
I had a very different experience. When I went for the second time to my dealer listening to a 220 Pro I felt dissatisfied. The bass definition was not as clear as before. After listening carefully to my test track twice I had to call my dealer back in the listening room. I told him something was wrong with the system. What happened? By accident he installed the 120 in the room. Once swapped with the 220 Pro I listened again, confirmed the nice baseline, and bought it on the spot!
Maybe the rest of the music chain (source, speaker, room) did not allow you to hear the sonical benefits of the 220 Pro. But I can assure you they are there when conditions are good and with the right track.
Happy listening.
RE: upgrade is back - jfddoc - 08-Aug-2018
The cost to upgrade my 5 year old D-Premier 170 (200) is $6490 US. But my Mac Mini is running out of space and the price difference between an Aurender N100H and N10 is only about $5000. I'm going to audition both Aurenders this weekend, but I'm pretty sure that the money would be better spent on the N10.