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+--- Thread: upgrade is back (/Thread-upgrade-is-back)
RE: upgrade is back - Jean-Marie - 06-Aug-2018
On the power topic, although it is true that assuming no thermal distortion and sufficient low level of THD, once the amplifier is providing enough tension and current for driving a given set of speakers to a given level, having a more powerful amplifier will not increase SQ, this is not true at all if you turn on SAM on a Devialet.
With SAM, an infinite peak power is really the ideal, because it drives the acceleration of the driver, and therefore the peak power the amplifiers needs to deliver in the ideal can be really high. Just look the 4500 W peak power that a phantom gold is delivering.
Jean-Marie
RE: upgrade is back - thumb5 - 06-Aug-2018
(06-Aug-2018, 11:51)RebelMan Wrote:(06-Aug-2018, 11:46)thumb5 Wrote:(06-Aug-2018, 11:42)RebelMan Wrote: Incorrect. I am making a specific statement(s) about sound quality as it pertains to the Expert and Expert Pros.
To clarify: by "universal" I meant "applying to everyone".
Understood, but my comments do not engage anyone only the amplifiers under question. The statements made are facts about the series not theories about the people using them.
There can be absolutely nothing to say about "sound quality" unless people are involved. Otherwise, you're talking about objective measurements, be they of voltage, current, air pressure fluctuations, etc.
RE: upgrade is back - Jean-Marie - 06-Aug-2018
Perception is also one of the most tricky thing. Since we have evolved to detect pattern variations (a variation was meaning danger and false positive were way safer than false negatives when our lives were depending on our vigilance) it is very hard for our brain not to find differences, even when there are not.
Everyone does according to ones tastes and this is what matters, but personally I consider ABX as the best friend of my wallet
All the best.
Jean-Marie
RE: The REAL Cost of Upgrading - Lincolnlad - 06-Aug-2018
(06-Aug-2018, 06:40)RebelMan Wrote: What I am about to say is likely to rub some people the wrong way. For those that it does take it from one enthusiast to another as a little tough love.
There is absolutely NO difference in sound quality between any of the Devialet Expert series models, NONE! That's right, I said it. It needed to be said. From the 120(110) / 200(170) all the way to the 400 / 800 the sound quality is indistinguishable from amp-to-amp, in other words, identical across the board, that's right they all sound the SAME!
Likewise, there is absolutely NO difference in sound quality between any of the Devialet Expert Pro series models either, NONE! That's right, I said it again. It needed to be said again. From the (130)140 / 220 all the way to the 440 / 1000 the sound quality is once again indistinguishable from amp-to-amp, in other words, identical across the board, that's right they once again all sound the SAME!
Why do I say that? Because they were engineered that way!!! So why then do people claim to hear differences between models of the same series? The answer lies somewhere between three sets of subjective analysis... propaganda, perception and placebo (aka the 3 P's).
PROPAGANDA
People are easily persuaded by what they are told, regardless of whether it's truthful or not, especially if they are unable to validate it. There is countless historical evidence that proves this. It's no different with this hobby. Some new tech comes along, like the Devialet D-Premier, and people spring into action. They want a piece of this exciting industry disturbing movement so they acquire the gear by any means necessary. Then they publicize all the wonderful merits this new tech provides. Then not long after everyone has been exposed things begin to change, the newness wears off. Eventually the publicity starts to fade and then the flavor of the month is replaced by something else. These people will profess why you should own one (just before they move on). These are often the same people that claim the more expensive models will sound better too. HOGWASH!
PERCEPTION
People have this crazy notion or belief that if something is more expensive than another then it must be better just because it is more expense. Nothing could be further from the truth. Price is not indicative of performance and it should NEVER be your guide. Once again, there are countless examples that proves this. NO ONE should be upgrading their equipment to the next level thinking because it is more expensive it therefore must be better. WRONG!
PLACEBO
When people audition equipment many times it's around other people and in a setting that is not entirely conducive to controlled critical listening. The discussions during and afterwards has an influence on people mostly positive because they tend to be polite about it. If you are fortunate enough to critically audition equipment (in a controlled environment) before you buy you may formulate a better opinion, then again maybe not. Sadly, most people are not fortunate enough to do this so they are more dependent on what other people say. It's a different venue here but the process is no less the same. People will buy a piece of gear and talk about how they think it performs only to replace it later with something else that they are convinced sounds better... after all they bought into it (both figuratively and literally) so of course it's better, it has to be better, it better be better. FALLACY!
So, is it foolish for people to spend the money to, move up, trade-in, exchange, upgrade or however you wish to call it from say the 120 to the 200 or from the 200 to the 400 or from the 250 to the 800? That all depends on the reasons why they did it. If it was for sound quality then YES it was foolish. Someone said this type of decision making is a personal choice and there is no right or wrong to it. NO IT IS NOT! It is a PRACTICAL one. A personal choice would be deciding between Brand/Class X or Brand/Class Y. A practical choice would be deciding which Brand/Class X to get (which pertains to this topic).
Besides features the ONLY reason a person would need to "level up" (pay more money) is for more POWER, clean, unadulterated POWER. You do not need a Devialet Expert 800 to get the best performance from a Devialet Expert. But you may need the additional power it can provide. But let me be VERY CLEAR, MORE POWER DOES NOT IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY!!! It ONLY increases SPL, that's Sound Pressure Level, the ability to play at higher volumes and maintain the same level of sound quality.
Lots of clean power is very expensive to make, so if your system needs it then you have to pay a lot for it. But how do you know your system needs lots of power? (Actually, most people don't they just think they do.) You have to calculate and/or measure it. One way is to use a multimeter of sorts. Another, quick and dirty, way is to push the limits of the Devialet until the protection circuitry kicks in, although I don't recommend this.
I seriously doubt anyone here, sans engineers, has actually taken the time to measure what they need. Until you do you are just guessing. That said, it's okay to play it safe and buy more power than you think you need but don't think for one instant that a 800 watt Devialet sounds any better than a 120 watt Devialet does (just because it has the potential to do more work - a little engineering wit). It doesn't!
What's been said about the Expert line is no different for the Expert Pro line. But what about between the lines? The Pro series architecture has been improved and in some important ways but those ways were primarily for power and thermal efficiencies (plus a few new features). Some of theses benefits will manifest themselves as improvements to sound quality but they will be very subtle at best. They are not going to be the day and night differences and profound revelations people claim, even under the best of circumstances. It's a perpetual gross exaggeration of the facts when people make these claims. Perhaps because these same people easily succumb to the 3P's.
What about the people that are adamant about the improvements they hear? Those people are entitled to their opinion, even if their perspective is skewed. What about the specs, the dual-mono's have better specs so surely they sound better? Nope, they are simply the benefits of a bridged design. But lets assume for a moment that they made a difference wouldn't it matter then? Again nope, because there isn't a single person on the planet that has the physiology to detect a 0.00025% delta of distortion and a 3dB lower noise floor over 120+ dB SNR.
Unless the additional features and power is necessary all (110)120 owners should be rejoicing about now. You don't need a Space Shuttle like budget to soar high above the clouds when a modest pocket rocket can deliver the same benefit. Just ask Jeff Fritz!
I may be behind the curve on this, but I auditioned a 200 Expert, not impressed, but a minute later with a 250 Expert to my ears a significant difference in SQ and timing, so that’s what I bought (and added a 250 Companion later. I knew absolutely nothing about Devialet except it’s looks so no propaganda etc.
RE: The REAL Cost of Upgrading - Flashman - 06-Aug-2018
(06-Aug-2018, 06:40)RebelMan Wrote: What I am about to say is likely to rub some people the wrong way. For those that it does take it from one enthusiast to another as a little tough love.I would say, with tongue firmly planted in cheek, that you are a rebel with a cause! Cheers, Flashman
There is absolutely NO difference in sound quality between any of the Devialet Expert series models, NONE! That's right, I said it. It needed to be said. From the 120(110) / 200(170) all the way to the 400 / 800 the sound quality is indistinguishable from amp-to-amp, in other words, identical across the board, that's right they all sound the SAME!
Likewise, there is absolutely NO difference in sound quality between any of the Devialet Expert Pro series models either, NONE! That's right, I said it again. It needed to be said again. From the (130)140 / 220 all the way to the 440 / 1000 the sound quality is once again indistinguishable from amp-to-amp, in other words, identical across the board, that's right they once again all sound the SAME!
Why do I say that? Because they were engineered that way!!! So why then do people claim to hear differences between models of the same series? The answer lies somewhere between three sets of subjective analysis... propaganda, perception and placebo (aka the 3 P's).
PROPAGANDA
People are easily persuaded by what they are told, regardless of whether it's truthful or not, especially if they are unable to validate it. There is countless historical evidence that proves this. It's no different with this hobby. Some new tech comes along, like the Devialet D-Premier, and people spring into action. They want a piece of this exciting industry disturbing movement so they acquire the gear by any means necessary. Then they publicize all the wonderful merits this new tech provides. Then not long after everyone has been exposed things begin to change, the newness wears off. Eventually the publicity starts to fade and then the flavor of the month is replaced by something else. These people will profess why you should own one (just before they move on). These are often the same people that claim the more expensive models will sound better too. HOGWASH!
PERCEPTION
People have this crazy notion or belief that if something is more expensive than another then it must be better just because it is more expense. Nothing could be further from the truth. Price is not indicative of performance and it should NEVER be your guide. Once again, there are countless examples that proves this. NO ONE should be upgrading their equipment to the next level thinking because it is more expensive it therefore must be better. WRONG!
PLACEBO
When people audition equipment many times it's around other people and in a setting that is not entirely conducive to controlled critical listening. The discussions during and afterwards has an influence on people mostly positive because they tend to be polite about it. If you are fortunate enough to critically audition equipment (in a controlled environment) before you buy you may formulate a better opinion, then again maybe not. Sadly, most people are not fortunate enough to do this so they are more dependent on what other people say. It's a different venue here but the process is no less the same. People will buy a piece of gear and talk about how they think it performs only to replace it later with something else that they are convinced sounds better... after all they bought into it (both figuratively and literally) so of course it's better, it has to be better, it better be better. FALLACY!
So, is it foolish for people to spend the money to, move up, trade-in, exchange, upgrade or however you wish to call it from say the 120 to the 200 or from the 200 to the 400 or from the 250 to the 800? That all depends on the reasons why they did it. If it was for sound quality then YES it was foolish. Someone said this type of decision making is a personal choice and there is no right or wrong to it. NO IT IS NOT! It is a PRACTICAL one. A personal choice would be deciding between Brand/Class X or Brand/Class Y. A practical choice would be deciding which Brand/Class X to get (which pertains to this topic).
Besides features the ONLY reason a person would need to "level up" (pay more money) is for more POWER, clean, unadulterated POWER. You do not need a Devialet Expert 800 to get the best performance from a Devialet Expert. But you may need the additional power it can provide. But let me be VERY CLEAR, MORE POWER DOES NOT IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY!!! It ONLY increases SPL, that's Sound Pressure Level, the ability to play at higher volumes and maintain the same level of sound quality.
Lots of clean power is very expensive to make, so if your system needs it then you have to pay a lot for it. But how do you know your system needs lots of power? (Actually, most people don't they just think they do.) You have to calculate and/or measure it. One way is to use a multimeter of sorts. Another, quick and dirty, way is to push the limits of the Devialet until the protection circuitry kicks in, although I don't recommend this.
I seriously doubt anyone here, sans engineers, has actually taken the time to measure what they need. Until you do you are just guessing. That said, it's okay to play it safe and buy more power than you think you need but don't think for one instant that a 800 watt Devialet sounds any better than a 120 watt Devialet does (just because it has the potential to do more work - a little engineering wit). It doesn't!
What's been said about the Expert line is no different for the Expert Pro line. But what about between the lines? The Pro series architecture has been improved and in some important ways but those ways were primarily for power and thermal efficiencies (plus a few new features). Some of theses benefits will manifest themselves as improvements to sound quality but they will be very subtle at best. They are not going to be the day and night differences and profound revelations people claim, even under the best of circumstances. It's a perpetual gross exaggeration of the facts when people make these claims. Perhaps because these same people easily succumb to the 3P's.
What about the people that are adamant about the improvements they hear? Those people are entitled to their opinion, even if their perspective is skewed. What about the specs, the dual-mono's have better specs so surely they sound better? Nope, they are simply the benefits of a bridged design. But lets assume for a moment that they made a difference wouldn't it matter then? Again nope, because there isn't a single person on the planet that has the physiology to detect a 0.00025% delta of distortion and a 3dB lower noise floor over 120+ dB SNR.
Unless the additional features and power is necessary all (110)120 owners should be rejoicing about now. You don't need a Space Shuttle like budget to soar high above the clouds when a modest pocket rocket can deliver the same benefit. Just ask Jeff Fritz!
RE: upgrade is back - Confused - 06-Aug-2018
Well, @RebelMan 's post hs certainly livened things up a bit, maybe that was the idea?
I would like to point out a logical issue I have with Rebelman's arguments though. Take the 3P's, propaganda, perception, and placebo. I could add to these, expectation bias, confirmation bias, and so on. All of these issues are real and we should ignore them at our peril, so here I think we agree.
So the 3P's and other phenomena can easily explain why people claim to hear differences where there are none. OK - This I accept.
However, if someone claims to hear clear differences between two amplifiers, say a Devialet 200 and a Devialet 800, there could be two reasons for this. Reason 1, the influence of the 3P's, it sounds the same but some kind of expectation bias is making the listener think there are differences when in fact there are none. Reason 2 is that they do actually sound different, and the listener is correctly perceiving that the D800 is better. The point here is that just because factors such as the 3P's exist, it is not proof that someone has only imagined a difference, it remains a possibility that the listeners has actually heard a real difference.
With respect to the above, @Jean-Marie has a point with respect to ABX testing. Although this is a controversial area too, but despite this, I would love to see more double-blind and ABX tests taking place. I'd love to see dealers do it (trustworthy dealers that is), I'd love to see magazine reviewers do it, rather than just give "Editors Choice" awards to any product for whom the manufacturer places adverts in their magazine. (I have actually attended some quick blind tests at Oxford Audio between music servers, quite fascinating as it happens)
OK - I will now repeat now my subjective experience of listening to a D170 versus a D240 Expert with the KEF Blade - The D250 was substantially better. In fact, the difference was so stark that I believe that for some reason the D170 was not driving the Blades properly, the main issue being a complete collapse with the bass definition. Do you believe me? I am just a bloke on a forum, I could be making it up. Maybe I just thought the D250 was better because it was more expensive? So you could read this and shout "rubbish", they sound the same, you week fool, you have been struck by the 3P's. Maybe. Of course, I have the advantage that I was there, so I am clear in my own mind what I experienced, but for your lot, how do you know? I could say in my defense that I wanted to try the D170 because it was cheaper, and I thought that the drop in 70watts would make no difference, my expectation bias was that they would sound the same. But you could come back and say that the 3P's had struck me subconsciously. The truth is, nobody can prove this, and I mean 100% prove this either way.
An example of this is something I mentioned earlier. I could listen to a track on my iPad, then listen to the same track using a 1000Pro and KEF Blades. I could do this blind in controlled ABX conditions, and get 10 out of 10 right. I am sure most people could do this. I have never tried it though so I might be subject to the 3P's? I would hope that we can all agree that most of us could pass such a test.
This is a topic that fascinates me as it happens because there is plenty of evidence in the world that human hearing is incredibly capable of picking up the tiniest of details. The problem is that at this level, we are also in the range that the human ear/brain combination can be tricked. So when listening to small changes, say two different music servers in a digital system, you could well be hearing differences, but not sure yourself if you are being tricked by expectation bias.
So in my view, none of this is relevant to if a D200 sounds different to a D120, or whatever. It does offer an explanation as to why two identical sounding items might be perceived as different, but it does not disprove that the difference was perceived because it was actually real.
So this leaves us with the technical side of things. Are there technical reasons why different Devialet models could sound better as you move up the range. I have seen many technical reasons why this is the case. The differences in the power supplier, how this affects transient power, and now differences in the Pro ADH, together with further power supply enhancements. I have listened to Mathieu Pernot explaining at great length why power, and in particular transient power capability is very important to sound quality. OK - You could argue that Mathieu is just saying this to help sell the more expensive products, but I have spent many hours talking to him in the past, and he comes across to me as an Engineer, who is happier when he is talking technically to other Engineers. He has zero time for the marketing hype and audiophile snake oil.
As a final point, I would say that stating that something is a fact just by stating it is a fact and putting words in capital letters does not actually make something a fact. Neither does it necessarily make it wrong either. What is actually needed is sound technical arguments. One thing I have found in audio, is that sound technical arguments are hard to come by, they are often incomplete, but that does not stop me looking. I also know that there are some things I have believed to be facts, that I have later learned to be wrong because I did not know all the factors involved. For this reason, I am happy to say that there is a lot I do not know, but I am happy to learn for a collaborative community, not just here but in places like Computer Audiophile. CA is an interesting place actually, it has it's fair share of people that look like they might be influenced by the 3P's, but it also has some of the most technically capable people I have ever experienced in the subject of audio reproduction. It is good to liaise with these people, listen and learn. Audio is a far more complex topic than most people realise. If you think you know it all, then you are almost certainly wrong because you have stopped looking and listening. Keep an open mind I would say, and yes, beware of the 3P's.
RE: upgrade is back - Jean-Marie - 06-Aug-2018
(06-Aug-2018, 15:06)Confused Wrote: OK - I will now repeat now my subjective experience of listening to a D170 versus a D240 Expert with the KEF Blade - The D250 was substantially better. In fact, the difference was so stark that I believe that for some reason the D170 was not driving the Blades properly, the main issue being a complete collapse with the bass definition. Do you believe me? I am just a bloke on a forum, I could be making it up. Maybe I just thought the D250 was better because it was more expensive? So you could read this and shout "rubbish", they sound the same, you week fool, you have been struck by the 3P's. Maybe. Of course, I have the advantage that I was there, so I am clear in my own mind what I experienced, but for your lot, how do you know? I could say in my defense that I wanted to try the D170 because it was cheaper, and I thought that the drop in 70watts would make no difference, my expectation bias was that they would sound the same. But you could come back and say that the 3P's had struck me subconsciously. The truth is, nobody can prove this, and I mean 100% prove this either way.
If SAM was on, then the difference between the two amps was much more than 70W.
With its 4 boomers, the blade is certainly deeping quite low and therefore peak power is what matters.
Ask yourself why a 250 can be bridged into 1000W with peak on 2W over 4000W while a 220 will only bridge to 440 and peak on 2W of 1600W.
So although the constant power between the two products is within 0.5 dB, their peak power is 4dB apart.
That’s probably what you have heard.
Jean-Marie
RE: upgrade is back - K4680 - 06-Aug-2018
Hello friends, even outside the chat, some users have noticed the differences (120 to 200). The test of HFA is a bit older, but meaningful!
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/network-player-reviews/devialet-120-and-200-hybrid-class-aclass-d-integrated-amplifiers/
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/network-player-reviews/devialet-120-and-200-hybrid-class-aclass-d-integrated-amplifiers-part-2/
RE: upgrade is back - tom539 - 06-Aug-2018
(02-Aug-2018, 17:13)tom539 Wrote: Hello,
can anybody say something about pricing for upgrading to 440pro/CI (here in Germany)?
Do also the vinyl-input benefits from the CI-Board?
Use my analog source nearly 80% and for the other 20% I use Roon over LAN from my audio-PC.
And toslink from TV/Bluray, but that is not used very often and not worth to discussed for soundquality.
So I am thinking what to do and will first wait for an official offer from Devialet per mail...
Hello,
maybe is missed the answer...
How much does the vinyl-input benefits from the Pro-upgrade and/or the CI-Board?
Here in Germany the upgrade-price for 400 -> 440Pro CI is 6000 € - the same as before without the special-offer per mail.
If this price of 6K-€ is fix - I will not do the upgrade and stay with the 400...
ATB, tom
RE: upgrade is back - Confused - 06-Aug-2018
(06-Aug-2018, 15:47)Jean-Marie Wrote:As for SAM, there was a clue in the words, this was a comparison between the 170 and 240, hence before the glory days of SAM. That said, I am actually quite pleased that you picked up on this point. The thing is, I can do the calculations, the Blade has a sensitivity of 91dB/1w, so with a 170w amp, each speaker should run to over 109dB(a), or 112dB(a) for the pair, which should be enough. Enough? Yes, enough to cause hearing damage very rapidly.(06-Aug-2018, 15:06)Confused Wrote: OK - I will now repeat now my subjective experience of listening to a D170 versus a D240 Expert with the KEF Blade - The D250 was substantially better. In fact, the difference was so stark that I believe that for some reason the D170 was not driving the Blades properly, the main issue being a complete collapse with the bass definition. Do you believe me? I am just a bloke on a forum, I could be making it up. Maybe I just thought the D250 was better because it was more expensive? So you could read this and shout "rubbish", they sound the same, you week fool, you have been struck by the 3P's. Maybe. Of course, I have the advantage that I was there, so I am clear in my own mind what I experienced, but for your lot, how do you know? I could say in my defense that I wanted to try the D170 because it was cheaper, and I thought that the drop in 70watts would make no difference, my expectation bias was that they would sound the same. But you could come back and say that the 3P's had struck me subconsciously. The truth is, nobody can prove this, and I mean 100% prove this either way.
If SAM was on, then the difference between the two amps was much more than 70W.
With its 4 boomers, the blade is certainly deeping quite low and therefore peak power is what matters.
Ask yourself why a 250 can be bridged into 1000W with peak on 2W over 4000W while a 220 will only bridge to 440 and peak on 2W of 1600W.
So although the constant power between the two products is within 0.5 dB, their peak power is 4dB apart.
That’s probably what you have heard.
Jean-Marie
So why did the 170 appear to struggle with the Blades, the impedance curve does not dip too low, 3.2 ohms minimum, which is fine for a Devialet. You mention the 4 boomers (which I presume are bass drivers), and yes, I wondered about this too. Four per side is a lot, but why does this matter if the speaker efficiency is reasonably high. I am sure that we could speculate on this point, the effect of multiple voice coils, the fact that the Blade uses very large voice coils (about the size normally found on a 15" driver), perhaps something to do with the behavior of the crossover. The thing is, I do not know. So this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said audio is complex. I am sure if we could get one of the KEF designers together with one of the Devialet designers, talking freely, then we might get some idea of precisely what is happening. The rest of us, we make an assumption based on speaker efficiency and how logarithmic sound pressure levels work (which is basic engineering) and we get the wrong answer. Not because the basic engineering assumptions are wrong, but because there are other factors involved. These factors are based in science and engineering too, of course. It is just that the interaction between speakers and an amplifier is more complex than just watts and efficiency, there are dynamic factors going on that are probably very difficult to predict or model accurately.
So, without having a team of top hifi design engineers to help us, the best we can do is use our ears and have a listen, and see if it works. Of course, we need to watch out for expectation bias, and the reason I found the D170 did not work with the Blades could all be in my imagination. Myself, I am 100% sure it was not imagined, but I could never prove it to someone who reckons that I had.