+- Devialet Chat (https://devialetchat.com)
+-- Forum: Devialet Chat (https://devialetchat.com/Forum-Devialet-Chat)
+--- Forum: Tweaker's Corner (https://devialetchat.com/Forum-Tweaker-s-Corner)
+--- Thread: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation (/Thread-Audiophile-Grade-Ethernet-Switches-The-new-generation)
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Snoopy8 - 02-Dec-2019
(29-Nov-2019, 12:17)Johnnydev Wrote: Moreover, i think connecting the EtherRegen to only the dialog and the Pantoms via PLC is not a good idea. It will make some difference, but you bring the pollution from your power grid to the dac’s in your phantoms.I am using a DC Blocker with the Phantoms. This is the only power conditioner that I am using; found that other power conditioners, filters, chords etc. affect the dynamics of the music.
And if i understand correctly, the EtherRegen is precisely designed to eliminate the pollution before your DAC as much as possible
Agree with you that PLC may still have pollution. Hence I will test using the EtherRegen in 2 ways, firstly feeding the Dialog only with B side with 1 Ethernet cable, and secondly, using A side to feed 3 Ethernet cables to Phantoms and Dialog. I hope to get an EtherRegen before Christmas.
(02-Dec-2019, 16:10)Johnnydev Wrote: And now an burned-in EtherRegenWhat were your impressions before and after burn in? How long should I allow for burn in?
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Johnnydev - 03-Dec-2019
(02-Dec-2019, 22:23)Snoopy8 Wrote:(29-Nov-2019, 12:17)Johnnydev Wrote: Bovendien vind ik het geen goed idee om de EtherRegen alleen met de dialoog en de Pantoms via PLC te verbinden. Het zal enig verschil maken, maar je brengt de vervuiling van je elektriciteitsnet naar de dac's in je fantomen.Ik gebruik een DC Blocker met de Phantoms. Dit is de enige power conditioner die ik gebruik; ontdekte dat andere power conditioners, filters, akkoorden etc. de dynamiek van de muziek beïnvloeden.
En als ik het goed begrijp, is de EtherRegen precies ontworpen om de vervuiling vóór uw DAC zoveel mogelijk te elimineren
Ben het met u eens dat PLC nog steeds vervuiling kan hebben. Daarom zal ik testen met behulp van de EtherRegen op 2 manieren, ten eerste de Dialog alleen voeden met B-zijde met 1 Ethernet-kabel, en ten tweede, gebruik A-zijde om 3 Ethernet-kabels naar Phantoms en Dialog te voeren. Ik hoop voor Kerstmis een EtherRegen te krijgen.
(02-Dec-2019, 16:10)Johnnydev Wrote: En nu een ingebrande EtherRegenWat waren je indrukken voor en na het inbranden? Hoe lang moet ik inbranden?
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/page/15/#comments
I am now burned in at 145 hours with the EtherRegen and it’s unbelievable how much de SQ improved every day
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - kerkhoffd - 04-Dec-2019
Getting more and more interested in the Uptone EtherREGEN. It is almost double as expensive as a Silent Angel Bonn N8 switch, so will wait a bit longer until these two have been compared.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Antoine - 04-Dec-2019
For any ‘Dutchies’ curious; ordering direct from Uptone it cost me €637 for the Etherregen (including shipping) and €47,30 VAT, import duties and Fedex import costs.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - kerkhoffd - 04-Dec-2019
(04-Dec-2019, 16:18)Antoine Wrote: For any ‘Dutchies’ curious; ordering direct from Uptone it cost me €637 for the Etherregen (including shipping) and €47,30 VAT, import duties and Fedex import costs.
Thank you Antoine!
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - baconbrain - 05-Dec-2019
Wow, after reading the ASR review of the ER and the heated debate on the AS site, these discussions have really got me thinking about my personal perceptions when listening to audio gear ...
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 06-Dec-2019
(05-Dec-2019, 23:19)baconbrain Wrote: Wow, after reading the ASR review of the ER and the heated debate on the AS site, these discussions have really got me thinking about my personal perceptions when listening to audio gear ...
Why has that got you thinking?
I read the review and my immediate thought was "pseudoscience".
I've got a tertiary qualification in occupational health and safety which required me, for one subject, to design and conduct my own research project. My undergraduate degree included a fair bit of philosophy including some philosophy of science and one thing which was common to both my OH&S and philosophy studies was the fact that you can't prove that something doesn't exist by trying to show that it can't be found or measured. You can't prove that unicorns don't exist, for example, by pointing out that no one has come up with a confirmed observation of a unicorn. For all we know unicorns could be lurking in some remote corner of the world where humans never go. Prior to the 1930's everyone claimed that the coelacanth was extinct, after all we did have fossil evidence of them but no one had ever reported seeing one. Then a fishing boat off Africa brought one up from a depth in a fishing net. More than a few have been caught since then. Coelacanths did exist despite the lack of evidence. It was just that no one had looked in the right place in the right way. As the scientific/philosophical saying goes, "an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".
The big problem I had with the review was the assumption that because there were no differences between the etherRegen and an ordinary switch on the measurements, then there is no difference. That reminds me of the view back in the '60s when I was first getting into audio that if you had 2 amps with identical THD performance and played them at the same level, the results would be identical. Of course they were using the basic total THD measurement which fails to show the distortion spectrum, the proportions of the different harmonic overtones in the distortion. As soon became apparent, 2 amps with identical total THD could have very different distortion spectrums and differences in distortion spectrum are audible. The people who claimed to be able to hear a difference were right and the people who relied on identical total THD measurements were wrong.
Measurements tell you a lot about what was measured but they tell you nothing about what wasn't measured. The review relied on a few different measurements but there's no guarantee that there isn't something which wasn't measured which would show a difference, a difference which correlates with the listening reports of those who claim to hear a difference.
I'm not saying that there is something which could be measured and which would show a difference. We can't know that until someone finds something to measure which does show a difference. What I am saying is that no reputable scientist would say that there can't be any difference because a particular set of measurements doesn't show a difference. The most a reputable scientist would say is that on the basis of the tests conducted a difference can not be confirmed. That's a significantly different claim to the review's claim that there is no difference, period. That's why I say "pseudoscience".
It's wise to be cautious when claims can't be backed by measurements but the fact that no one has shown a measurable difference so far does not guarantee that one won't be found. If you hear a difference then it doesn't mean that you are mistaken. It means that you MAY be mistaken but it is also possible that you are right. You have to make a decision, whether to go with what your ears are telling you or not. There's no way to tell which way is the right way and it doesn't matter whether you want to side with your ears or side with the measurements, some of the time you will get it right and some of the time you will get it wrong and we have no way of predicting in advance whether you will be right or wrong on a particular occasion.
I've got my order in for one and I'm eager to hear what it does. I've got no idea whether it will deliver what it claims or not but I do know that the review on ASR doesn't prove anything other than that a particular set of measurements don't show a difference, not that there is no difference. The reviewer needs to have a look at the history of claims such as his in the past when it comes to differences in audio because there's a lot of history of that sort of claim turning out to be wrong. It's not the sort of claim a wise man, or a reputable scientist, would make.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - baconbrain - 06-Dec-2019
(06-Dec-2019, 00:14)David A Wrote:(05-Dec-2019, 23:19)baconbrain Wrote: Wow, after reading the ASR review of the ER and the heated debate on the AS site, these discussions have really got me thinking about my personal perceptions when listening to audio gear ...Why has that got you thinking?
Thanks David A, a well written response.
Personally, I have always tried to base audio purchasing decisions on MY personal subjective perception of the SQ contribution to MY system verses cost. The ideal method for me to really verify that decision has been to audition the component in my listening room prior to purchase . That method is possible in perhaps 50% of the use cases where the component can be procured locally and does not incur extensive additional costs for shipping/duties, etc. For the other 50%, I rely on manufacture specifications, official reviews (ideally with test data), and opinions of other trusted sources (like users, such as yourself, in this forum)
So, what does all of my blabbering have to do with this thread? Case in point was my decision to purchase a fully modified SoTM switch which I did not really audition up-front because it was just not locally available. Needless to say the investment was not insignificant and a bit outside of my comfort zone, but I decided (based mainly on SoTM marketing information and various forum user perceptions) to take the plunge.
In view of the discussions around the ER and the lack of quantifiable data supporting the benefit of such component(s), I ask myself if I am truly hearing an improvement with the SoTM Switch or just wanting to hear one ....
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - thumb5 - 06-Dec-2019
@David A It seems that you are being inconsistent and arguably somewhat disingenuous in dismissing the ASR review as "pseudoscience" while not applying similar tests to the claims made by UpTone. Forgive me if you've already dismissed them on this forum, in which case I missed it.
To use your analogy: UpTone claim (1) that there are (evil) unicorns, and (2) that they have a unicorn-slayer. They have neither demonstrated the existence of unicorns, their evil nature, nor their successful slaying. In the words of the old joke, the ER is yellow paint for the elephants' feet.
Joking aside, the ASR review did measure exactly the things (viz. jitter and noise) which UpTone claims the ER is meant to remove, and in two different cases objectively determined that jitter and noise were below extremely low thresholds whether the ER was present or a standard "non-audiophile" switch. Agreed, that does not prove that unicorns don't exist, but it is (at least one step towards) evidence that if they do exist they are rare enough to make no observable difference. From any pragmatic point of view that's the same thing. Do you live your life concerned about the possibility of meeting a unicorn, since it has not been proved that they don't exist?
None of that matters to anyone who would like to try an ER and see whether they hear differences in their system, of course. I might try one myself, who knows. But if we're going to have a discussion about the philosophy or standard of science let's apply it equally to both sides of the discussion.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 06-Dec-2019
(06-Dec-2019, 09:49)thumb5 Wrote: @David A It seems that you are being inconsistent and arguably somewhat disingenuous in dismissing the ASR review as "pseudoscience" while not applying similar tests to the claims made by UpTone. Forgive me if you've already dismissed them on this forum, in which case I missed it.
To use your analogy: UpTone claim (1) that there are (evil) unicorns, and (2) that they have a unicorn-slayer. They have neither demonstrated the existence of unicorns, their evil nature, nor their successful slaying. In the words of the old joke, the ER is yellow paint for the elephants' feet.
Joking aside, the ASR review did measure exactly the things (viz. jitter and noise) which UpTone claims the ER is meant to remove, and in two different cases objectively determined that jitter and noise were below extremely low thresholds whether the ER was present or a standard "non-audiophile" switch. Agreed, that does not prove that unicorns don't exist, but it is (at least one step towards) evidence that if they do exist they are rare enough to make no observable difference. From any pragmatic point of view that's the same thing. Do you live your life concerned about the possibility of meeting a unicorn, since it has not been proved that they don't exist?
None of that matters to anyone who would like to try an ER and see whether they hear differences in their system, of course. I might try one myself, who knows. But if we're going to have a discussion about the philosophy or standard of science let's apply it equally to both sides of the discussion.
Not inconsistent or disingenuous. The argument cuts both ways.
A claims X but does not provide proof and cannot provide proof. B says he has conducted tests and his tests don't show X therefore B claims that X does not exist. That is basically the situation we have here.
Well, just because A cannot provide a proof for X does not mean that X isn't true. On the other hand, just because B's tests don't show X doesn't prove that X isn't true. What we have here are 2 people making opposing claims and neither has provided a proof for their specific claim. We simply don't know which claim is true.
You can listen for yourself and you will either hear a difference or not hear a difference. If you hear a difference and like it you can buy the product but you may have been mistaken and actually did not hear a difference for some reason (there's lots of reasons you can make mistakes) so you find out you wasted your money. On the other hand you may not hear a difference so you don't buy the products and you find out later that there is a difference and you made the wrong choice. When there is no evidence either way, neither side can be certain that they're right and the other side is wrong. Both sides tend to get it right on some occasions and to get it wrong on other occasions. Neither side is infallible.
There have been times when I thought I heard a difference with some product and decided later that I hadn't and had been mistaken. There have also been times when I thought there wasn't a difference and I found out later that there was and that I was mistaken. There's 2 ways to get it wrong on things like this and I've got it wrong in both ways at different times. I've also got it right in both ways on other things at different times. If you don't have conclusive evidence that a claim is true then you also usually don't have conclusive evidence that it isn't true and in that situation, with 2 people making opposing claims, the only thing that is certain is that one of them is wrong but you have no way of telling for certain which one is wrong and which one is right.
Uptone certainly haven't shown that the etherRegen does what they claim but the tests in that review do not show that it doesn't do what it's claimed to do. All they show is that the tests which were conducted don't show that it makes a difference but they don't, and can't, show that a difference won't be found by some other test. On the other hand Uptone can't show that there is some other test which will show a difference so none of us have any way of proving conclusively that it works as claimed or that it doesn't work as claimed. We get to pick which side we want to stand on and whichever side we pick we may be wrong because there is no proof one way or the other at this stage.