Devialet Chat
"Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Printable Version

+- Devialet Chat (https://devialetchat.com)
+-- Forum: Devialet Chat (https://devialetchat.com/Forum-Devialet-Chat)
+--- Forum: Tweaker's Corner (https://devialetchat.com/Forum-Tweaker-s-Corner)
+--- Thread: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation (/Thread-Audiophile-Grade-Ethernet-Switches-The-new-generation)



RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Antoine - 28-Dec-2019

(27-Dec-2019, 17:23)K4680 Wrote: There is nothing better than hearing, testing and judging for yourself.  No matter what others write, publish or worship!!

I couldn’t agree more and it’s exactly the thing both you and I (and others of course) did.  Smile

(27-Dec-2019, 19:12)thumb5 Wrote:
(27-Dec-2019, 13:39)Antoine Wrote:
(27-Dec-2019, 11:21)disarmamant Wrote: ...
Read this, it’s rather revealing.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/
...
...

Read this, it’s rather revealing.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/

I and all those people there must be under the influence of some kind of mass delusion. Same goes for anyone reporting differences in sound using different switches (with audiophile aspirations or not), ethernet cables, usb cables or whatever type of active/passive device or cable that’s “just transporting digital 1’s and 0’s”.

To be fair, there seems to be an equal element of bias in both threads.  That said, both threads can also have an element of truth, without conflict.  (By the way I guess you had your tongue in your cheek when talking about mass delusion, since it's not an unknown phenomenon! Smile )

My original post was written ‘from the heart’, not the head. Sorry to disarmamant if it came across as shooting the messenger. Most of the time I try to not participate in these types of discussions or get out of them as quickly as possible. 

But yes, I agree these mechanisms could be at play to some degree. I however do believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The changes I still hear (even after more than two months) are too significant in my system, to my ears. Whatever the reason, I or anyone makes me want to believe, for this is.  Smile


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Johnnydev - 29-Dec-2019

(17-Dec-2019, 12:08)Snoopy8 Wrote: Here is my EtherREGEN review after burn-in and extended listening:

Current Setup

A simple UPnP setup using a MinimServer to get music from a NAS and serving to a pair of Devialet Phantom Gold (on DOS1).  Running convolution room correction on MinimServer. Using wired connections with standard Cat6 Ethernet cables to a Netgear Orbi switch, except for a Supra Cat8 cable to the Dialog (connected via PLC to Golds).

EtherREGEN Setup

Added EtherREGEN to setup with an additional standard Cat6 cable on “A side” and connected the Supra Cat8 cable to “B side”.

Listening Impressions

“WOW!” Was expecting some improvement but not such a big jump. Often, a new component may introduce subtle changes which require careful listening and many comparisons to identify any improvement.  For the EtherREGEN, the changes were obvious in the first few minutes of listening.  The background was darker which allowed more detail to come through.  All smearing was removed with a clarity that was unsurpassed.  Diana Krall’s “My love Is” starts with finger snapping. I have never heard how precise that snap was until now! Similarly, an old favourite, Salvatore Accardo’s rendition of the 1st movement of Pagnini’s Violin Concerto No. 4, sounded wonderful. It is the closest violin rendition to my benchmark, a live concert at a dedicated concert hall.

Have spent a lot of time doing convolution room correction to correct both impulse and phase. Managed to remove a significant amount of smearing and improved the sound stage.  The EtherREGEN essentially “completed the room correction” (not sure how else to describe it?) by removing all the smearing.

An A/B testing was not necessary, but I did it anyway.  There was a stark difference between the current setup and the EtherREGEN setup with the darker background and no smearing the obvious differences.

I could not stop listening the first evening and am still amazed at what the EtherREGEN could do. I bought the unit to evaluate (has a 30 day money back guarantee). It is NOT leaving my setup! 

p/s a linear power supply does improve things, more later...

Last week I connected the ER like you snoopy8

So router > A side ER > B side ER > devialet Dialog and the phantoms gold via PLC.

It sounded very good with the ER in between as you described.

I now went back to my first setup.

So: Router > B side ER > A Side ER > Devialet Dialog and my phantoms gold via supra cat8 ethernetcables.

This sounds even better to me overhere.

I dare not yet to upgrade from DOS1 to DOS 2, but expect an improvement without the Dialog, the A side of ER only with the supra cat8 ethernet cables to the phantoms golds.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Snoopy8 - 30-Dec-2019

(29-Dec-2019, 20:00)Johnnydev Wrote: Last week I connected the ER like you snoopy8

So router > A side ER > B side ER > devialet Dialog and the phantoms gold via PLC.

It sounded very good with the ER in between as you described.

I now went back to my first setup.

So: Router > B side ER > A Side ER > Devialet Dialog and my phantoms gold via supra cat8 ethernetcables.

This sounds even better to me overhere.

I dare not yet to upgrade from DOS1 to DOS 2, but expect an improvement without the Dialog, the A side of ER only with the supra cat8 ethernet cables to the phantoms golds.
Thank you.  I am enjoying the ER so much that I have yet to try your set up.  I will do it soon. Never tried it, but in DOS1, can the setup be forced to use the Ethernet instead of PLC ?

p/s Like you, I have not upgraded from DOS1 to DOS2.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Snoopy8 - 30-Dec-2019

Thank you @Johnnydev, the change to your configuration worked better, with more details and I will be keeping it.

For those unsure of what we previously discussed: current setup has the Dialog communicating to the Golds using Power Line Connection (PLC).

   

At the behest of Johnnydev, I reconfigured the setup, using the "A side" as output, with Ethernet cables  between the Dialog and Golds.

   

It produced a small step improvement with more detail and this has now become my new configuration.

Note that using the "A side" with multiple outputs may not work in every instance.  The EtherREGEN reduces the noise when the Ethernet signal crosses its "moat" but devices  across the moat may re-introduce noise.  Hence, need to test with your own configuration.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 30-Dec-2019

@Snoopy8

I don't have Phantoms and I'm totally unfamiliar with them but in the first setup where you're using the PLC connection, have you tried disconnecting the NAS and NUC from the Orbi and connecting each of them directly to the A side of the EtherRegen and letting the EtherRegen do the switching betweenNAS, NUC, and Dialog? You don't need the Orbi for any switching tasks, the EtherRegen can handle all of that, but I'm assuming that you're using the Orbi to allow you to control the NUC from a phone or tablet.

I wonder whether going that way would give you an improvement over the PLC setup you've shown because it effectively removes one device from the signal paths between NAS/NUC and the Dialog. Even if it does, it may not match your results with your second (now current) configuration but it is another possibility if you're in an experimental mood.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Johnnydev - 30-Dec-2019

(30-Dec-2019, 07:29)David A Wrote: @Snoopy8

I don't have Phantoms and I'm totally unfamiliar with them but in the first setup where you're using the PLC connection, have you tried disconnecting the NAS and NUC from the Orbi and connecting each of them directly to the A side of the EtherRegen and letting the EtherRegen do the switching betweenNAS, NUC, and Dialog? You don't need the Orbi for any switching tasks, the EtherRegen can handle all of that, but I'm assuming that you're using the Orbi to allow you to control the NUC from a phone or tablet.

I wonder whether going that way would give you an improvement over the PLC setup you've shown because it effectively removes one device from the signal paths between NAS/NUC and the Dialog. Even if it does, it may not match your results with your second (now current) configuration but it is another possibility if you're in an experimental mood.

No that is not possible, in the first setup you have always PLC connection: ER > ethernetcable > dialog > PLC > phantom golds.

Dialog > ethernetcables >  phantom golds is not possible.

The only way to go without PLC is the second set-up, and i think that is giving the sound quality improvement with the ethernetcables directly to the phantoms

That is also the reason that i think there is another improvement possible with the software upgrade from DOS1 to DOS2 and the dialog can then be deleted. So, The A-side from the ER only to the phantoms and no dialog

If you connect the ethernet cables directly to the phantoms they will automatically switch from PLC to Ethernet



@Snoopy8 thanks for the good explanation with the nice drawings.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - rdok - 30-Dec-2019

Experiences with EtherRegen


This I posted at Uptone pages on Audiophyle Style but because it involves the EtherRegen on the Devialet Expert I put it here as well. My apologies for the length, but I could not make this shorter without compromising what I want to report. At the end I will summarize the things I learned from this.

There are three reasons why I feel compelled to post my experiences with the ER:

First, there have been some posts saying ‘the sound is now so good I do not feel like changing anything’. I felt the same but for reasons below I did experiment further and my, how rewarding that was!
My writing might encourage others to find out if that could be true for them as well.

Second, a question some ask and for which not too many answers have been posted is whether the components upstream of the ER still matter. The same goes for the power supply for the ER .

Third, for fellow Devialet Expert users, a question asked but not answered that much is whether the USB input is still the best or if the ethernet input needs re-evaluation with the ER.

Of course my experiences are valid only for my system, listening room, my ears. I only aim to put one more data point in the forum and encourage others to experiment, with an open mind and foremost open ears. For they are our most sensitive instrument for assessing sound quality. No known measurement equipment or method comes even close!

As stated above I had reasons to start testing and experimenting even if I felt the sound to be so good that I just could keep on listening to it:

First, at the time the ER arrived, with also the IsoRegen and LPS 1.2 that were ordered with it, also the dedicated mains spur from the home main switchboard to my HiFi system was connected. And Roon updated from 1.6 to 1.7 and could not be postponed nor rolled back. That was four changes at once. I decided to let them settle for some time and then take the time to find out which effect each change had. I just wanted to know…..

Second, in my system there is (now: was) an Sbooster power supply that I borrowed and the time is nearing where it needs to be returned. I wanted to find out how to mitigate the effects of the loss of this lpsu in the system.

To start with I investigated the effect of the power cable feeding the wall plug. (due to availability for private persons this is a 4x4mm^2 cable. I use two for zero, two for phase in star quad. No twisting, this cable is stiff… and there is a dedicated ground pin for the grounding less than 2 meters from the HiFi set). This was no surprise, giving much more control for the bass, more flow in the music, more relaxed and transparent.

The IsoRegen (powered by the LPS 1.2) brings more spaciousness, subtlety and a bit more control for the bass.

The EtherRegen is a bir airier, further like the IR but less so. Later I found out that powering it with its supplied SMPS is less than optimal and compromised this result.

Anyway, this is were I felt like I could live with it. Easily an happy.

But… I needed to get the Sbooster out the system without too much loss.

I won’t describe all the details; that fills three pages of notes and goes along the effects mentioned many times by now. Let me just show a sketch of the before and after situation. Between the modem and HiFi side of system is a 10m AQ Forest network cable. I did a lot of changes and made notes after each step.

The pictures did not copy here, therefore they are in the attached pdf.

The start situation is the first picture there, after the changes is the second picture.


Removing the Sbooster at the modem side of the system cost spaciousness, detail, transparency and clarity. The further changes on that side compensated most of that. The change in switch resulted in more spaciousness than I had before. This switch is very good for audio, very cheap compared to the ER. It benefits from a good lpsu though. It not as good as the ER, but very good value for money.

On the HiFi rack side there also were a lot of changes.

Especially connecting the SR4 to the ER was an improvement, most noteworthy a jump in spaciousness, blacker background. But I still need the Sbooster….

At this stage I gained in spaciousness, detail, timbre, micro dynamics, in fact in everything. Not a big jump but still significant. And, the system sounds more balanced now. Better than before I started in fact.

I am using AudioLinux quite a while now. Before the availability of using acpi (giving the processor a constant frequency) I did not hear a significant difference in the wifi, ethernet or usb inputs of the Devialet.

Meanwhile wifi sounds less (or the others better) but I did not try ethernet for a while. Since the changes in AL and addition of the IR, I expected the ethernet input to fall behind now. But I decided to test it out of curiosity.

To my surprise, and much credit to the EtherRegen, I could now not hear any difference in the sound quality between the ethernet and usb input on the Devialet. That made it possible to remove the NUC and IR from the system. Now the Sbooster was free but also the Uptone LPS 1.2.

That LPS 1.2 I then used to feed the Netgear switch close to the modem/router. To my joy this gave even more spaciousness and a very little bit (if any) increase on other areas. My system has never sounded so good and relative to before these test the improvement in sound quality is impressive!

The end situation (for now…) is shown in the third picture in the pdf.

Roundup

I started with three reasons for writing this.

The first, ‘the ER is is so good I lost the urge to change the system’, makes me want to encourage those who feel like that to try and experiment more, not less. For me it turned out that a complete re-balancing of the system was very rewarding. Especially moving around of the linear power supplies made a lot of sense. Just swapping the ER in place of the previous switch turned out to be not the best choice, much more was to be gained.

And to my astonishment the best power supplies I have available are now on the switches!

Second, do components ‘upstream’ of the EtherRegen still matter? Oh yes, possibly even more so than before. The EtherRegen on its own brings an improvement. Fed by a good LPSU even more and this in itself is already impressive. And it makes it possible for improvements upstream to shine even more.

Third, with the ER the ethernet input of the Devialet gives much better results than before. For me exactly as good as the usb input, but I realise that my modest NUC, and not having taken measures like a Mutec reclocker may make this not the same for others.


John and Alex, thanks a lot for a terrific product in the EtherRegen. It took quite some work but my system sounds really really good now.

Also many thanks for all who contribute to the Audiophile Style long (A novel…) thread and the Uptone threads. I learned a lot from it and it stimulated me to push my system far further than I believed to be possible when I started.


Rob

the Netherlands
.pdf   Schets systeem.pdf (Size: 38.63 KB / Downloads: 32)


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - thumb5 - 30-Dec-2019

I have to say: if the components upstream of the EtherREGEN "still matter...possibly even more so than before" then it seems to me that it has failed in its primary design goal of isolating the effect of those components from the DAC.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 30-Dec-2019

(30-Dec-2019, 09:34)Johnnydev Wrote: No that is not possible, in the first setup you have always PLC connection: ER > ethernetcable > dialog > PLC > phantom golds.

Dialog > ethernetcables >  phantom golds is not possible.

The only way to go without PLC is the second set-up, and i think that is giving the sound quality improvement with the ethernetcables directly to the phantoms

That is also the reason that i think there is another improvement possible with the software upgrade from DOS1 to DOS2 and the dialog can then be deleted. So, The A-side from the ER only to the phantoms and no dialog

If you connect the ethernet cables directly to the phantoms they will automatically switch from PLC to Ethernet



@Snoopy8 thanks for the good explanation with the nice drawings.


I did not suggest doing without the PLC connection. What I suggested was disconnecting the NAS and NUC from the Orbi and having the NAS, NUC, and Orbi each connected directly to the EtherREGEN. The only things that I suggested changing were on the A side of the EtherRegen in the first diagram. The connection from the B side of the EtherRegen to the Dialog and the PLC connections from the Dialog to the Phantoms would remain unchanged.


The reasoning behind my suggestion is as follows:

The ER provides some isolation for signals passing from one device on the A side to another device on the A side and maximum isolation for signals passing from a device on the A side across the moat to a device on the B side.

In the first diagram only the Orbi is connected to the A side. Signals between the NAS and the NUC don’t pass through the A side of the ER, they pass through the Orbi which provides the switching and no isolation between the NAS and the NUC. You get isolation across the moat between the Orbi and the Dialog.

What I’m suggesting provides isolation on the A side of the ER between the NAS and the NUC, and between the Orbi and the NUC for music streamed from the internet. It also provides isolation across the moat for signals passed from the NUC to the Dialog. Signals between the NAS and the NUC do not need to pass through the Obi at all as it does not act as a switch connecting the NAS and NUC, the A side of the ER does that job, and the ER is the only device acting as a switch between NUC and Dialog.

The PLC connections from Dialog to Phantoms are not changed, they remain unaltered.

So, in theory, my suggestion should provide isolation between NAS and NUC, and also between the internet and NUC that the setup in the diagram does not provide. In addition the signal from the NUC to the Dialog doesn’t have to pass through the Orbi on the way to the Dialog, it goes directly from the NUC to the A side of the ER then across the moat to the B side connection to the Dialog. The ethernet signal path is shorter and you get increased isolation between NAS and NUC, and between the internet via the Orbi and the NUC, plus you also eliminate the Orbi as a potential source of noise between the NUC and the Dialog.


Sorry but you misinterpreted what I was suggesting.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Snoopy8 - 30-Dec-2019

(30-Dec-2019, 07:29)David A Wrote: I don't have Phantoms and I'm totally unfamiliar with them but in the first setup where you're using the PLC connection, have you tried disconnecting the NAS and NUC from the Orbi and connecting each of them directly to the A side of the EtherRegen and letting the EtherRegen do the switching betweenNAS, NUC, and Dialog? You don't need the Orbi for any switching tasks, the EtherRegen can handle all of that, but I'm assuming that you're using the Orbi to allow you to control the NUC from a phone or tablet.

I wonder whether going that way would give you an improvement over the PLC setup you've shown because it effectively removes one device from the signal paths between NAS/NUC and the Dialog. Even if it does, it may not match your results with your second (now current) configuration but it is another possibility if you're in an experimental mood.
I did try the NAS and NUC on the EtherREGEN, but it did not make a discernible difference.  The Orbi is part of my home mesh network and does not have to be in the music loop. Yes, it is used for control of NUC, but also used by everyone for everything else.

If not for the persistence of JohnnyDev, I would not tried this new config (thank you, JohnnyDev!).  Having 3 outputs which could re-introduce noise after the "moat" should not work, but was pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.  Whether using multiple outputs can work with other types of setups remains to be seen.

---------
Some observations on many of the earlier posts, going back many, many pages.

There has been far too many debates (more like arguments!) started by people who have never tried the product, intent on putting down and dismissing people who have positive experiences.  To me, it is their loss for not willing to try something which has good potential for improving the audio setup.  I am enjoying my music more than ever because of the EtherREGEN.