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"Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Printable Version

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RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Confused - 31-Dec-2019

For a bit of balance here, @thumb5 wrote:

"I have to say: if the components upstream of the EtherREGEN "still matter...possibly even more so than before" then it seems to me that it has failed in its primary design goal of isolating the effect of those components from the DAC."

The above comments was considered negatively by some.  OK, here is a quote from UpTone designer John Swenson:

"The whole purpose of the EtherREGEN is to greatly reduce effects coming from the upstream system. So assuming you have the B port attached to the audio endpoint, don't worry about what is connected to the A side ports. Cables, switches, servers etc should all have very little impact (if any) on the sound quality. So don't worry about them."  (there are similar words on UpTone's website)

As far as I can see, Thumb5's comment is perfectly logical with respect to the claims from the designer.

Using further logic, if users are hearing a difference from upstream changes, then those changes are either real or imagined.  If real, the EtherRegen does not work as the designer is claiming.  Either that I, or there is some kind of unknown mechanism in play here.  Not impossible, but indeed this will be a mechanism unknown to the designer of the product, unless the designer's claim for the product is bogus in the first place.  OK - Thumb5 has not listened to an EtherRegen, but neither is he disputing anyone's listening impressions, he is just pointing out the logical conclusion based on UpTone's own claims of the benefit of the EtherRegen's "moat" design, relative to users listening reports.  The moat is supposed to regenerate the Ethernet signal on the B side, unaffected by electrical and clock phase noise on the upstream A side.  In fact, it was the elegance of this concept that persuaded me to buy the EtherRegen rather than one of the alternatives.  But who knows what the truth is here?  Maybe the EtherRegen eliminates phase noise, but not some other upstream noise or interference, we could speculate endlessly but it would not prove much either way.

As an update from myself, I have tried running my EtherRegen using a clock signal from my Mutec REF10.  With this configuration, the system sounds very good indeed.  I have not yet tried A/B testing this configuration.  In fact, using the REF10 with the EtherRegen is proving a little problematic, the only spare clock cable I have is quite short, this naturally placed the EtherRegen in my rack above the tX-USBultra, directly to the side of the REF10 / MC3+USB.  In this location it was getting uncomfortably hot, it was actually painful to touch it.  The key thing with 10Mhz reference clock cables is that they work better if they are very short, and if you have a device that needs to be in free air outside of the rack for cooling, a short cable is problematic.  Anyway, after a bit of creative reorganisation, the EtherRegen is now in "free air" outside of the rack, in front of the Mutec REF10, and resting on my sPS-500.  The sPS-500 is not the greatest PSU in the world, but it does run stone cold, so it now adds a little extra benefit as a cool stand for the EhterRegen, perhaps assisting with cooling a little.  Appearance wise this does not look too bad to me, (I am sure some would find it horrific) but my system is now looking less and less like domestic audio equipment, and more like a Heath Robinson science experiment.  What I am happy about is that I have retained the short clock cable to the REF10, and the EtherRegen has now reverted to a more comfortable temperature.  As an aside, this set up also gives very easy access to the EtherRegen.  This is bad news in terms of it being potentially being clobbered by a vacuum cleaner, but I have just tried taking the Ethernet cable from the sMS-200Ultra from the B side to the A side of the EtherRegen, if you are slick, this can be done without stopping the music.  This would make a good A/B test I think, just try one side of the moat versus the other.  I could also try switching between the REF10 and the internal clock, this too would be an easy test.  So many things to try.

Over the holiday period I have had plenty of time for the simple pleasure of listening to music.  As I mentioned in my own system thread I came to the conclusion that the effect of the EtherRegen was quite small.  With some long term listening, nothing has really changed that view, except to say it seems to be a very welcome and positive small change.  There are those odd things in the sound that can irritate with digital reproduction, that slight harshness in the higher frequencies, sounds that are not fully resolved.  The impression I get is that somehow the EtherRegen adds a little bit of polish, and turns that slight harshness into nice resolved sounds.  Curiously, it is snare drums that are getting my attention most in terms of change, with the sound moving from an artificial HF "tish" sound, to actually sounding like the sound of a snare.  It is like transient staccato sounds are now being resolved rather that smeared digitally.  (if you can smear something digitally, but that is how it sounds to me)  As I said, it is a small change, at the margins of what might be real or imagined, but it is a very positive small change to my ears, I can say I have been enjoying the music enormously with the EtherRegen in play.  Sometimes those small changes can make a big change to the enjoyment of music.  It is a bit like a luxury car that becomes very annoying because of a tiny rattle or noise, eliminate the tiny rattle, the car moves from being irritating to enjoyable.

I guess in summary I can say the direction my wallet is taking me, I sent my AQVOX switch back for refund, the EtherRegen is a keeper.

I wonder if someone will set up a decent blind testing session in 2020?


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 31-Dec-2019

@thumb5 - I think you're right, we have little prospect of seeing much from Uptone or any really compelling evidence one way or the other from reliable independent sources. It's not only that there's little benefit in Uptone providing such evidence, there's also little benefit for anyone else in verifying Uptone's claims. It's a product with a small market and the cost of verifying the claims gets added to the manufacturers cost of production. That drives the cost of the device up whicht takes the product out of the financial reach of some potential buyers, shrinks the market and reduces the manufacturer's return on investment.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Snoopy8 - 01-Jan-2020

Been going through the Uptone EtherREGEN listening impressions thread and this thread to collate impressions. Been subjectively grading the posted sound quality improvement as "big", "some" and "no" and only for posts where the user identified the DAC. Of the 44 posts, 34 reported "big" improvements, 7 "some" and 3 with "no" improvements.

Devialet accounted for 6 out of 44 posts, with 5 of us (Dutch, desert38, rdok, JohnnyDev, Snoopy8) reported "big" improvements and Confused with "some" improvements.  4 of the 5 PSA DirectStream owners reported "big" improvements, 1 with "some".

Of the 3 with "no" improvements, one was from AmirM at ASR, evolvist was using a Linn KDS/3 and wwc was using a Lampizator DAC w/300b tubes

Hope this gives you a good representation of the impressions which have been posted.  If you are a Devialet owner, suggest giving the EtherREGEN a try (with 30 day money back guarantee). You may be surprised on what it can do!


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - baconbrain - 01-Jan-2020

(01-Jan-2020, 07:12)Snoopy8 Wrote: Been going through the Uptone EtherREGEN listening impressions thread and this thread to collate impressions. Been subjectively grading the posted sound quality improvement as "big", "some" and "no" and only for posts where the user identified the DAC. Of the 44 posts, 34 reported "big" improvements, 7 "some" and 3 with "no" improvements.

Devialet accounted for 6 out of 44 posts, with 5 of us (Dutch, desert38, rdok, JohnnyDev, Snoopy8) reported "big" improvements and Confused with "some" improvements.  4 of the 5 PSA DirectStream owners reported "big" improvements, 1 with "some".

Of the 3 with "no" improvements, one was from AmirM at ASR, evolvist was using a Linn KDS/3 and wwc was using a Lampizator DAC w/300b tubes

Hope this gives you a good representation of the impressions which have been posted.  If you are a Devialet owner, suggest giving the EtherREGEN a try (with 30 day money back guarantee). You may be surprised on what it can do!

Good overview. The results really don’t surprise me given that in theory the problem Uptone wants to address with the ER seems to make sense. The whole idea around an isolated domain reminds me of the initial Melco „Player Mode“ approach which made quite a splash in the Audiophile community. I also feel that the perception spread from big to little change fits to the Hans Beekhuyzen review mentioned in a previous post. The overall impact of the ER is certainly proportional to the quality/configuration of the existing network environment and the audio equipment within.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - baconbrain - 01-Jan-2020

(31-Dec-2019, 01:08)David A Wrote: I have no problem with your scepticism and I would like to see Uptone provide some form of supporting evidence for several reasons, one of which is that if they provided evidence then we'd have a lot clearer idea of what and how to conduct tests to confirm or dismiss their claims.

I just wish that the scepticism that is directed towards Uptone was also directed towards the ASR review and measurements. Any scientist will tell you that you cannot prove that there is no difference between 2 things by simply running tests that fail to show a difference but that's what ASR is claiming to have done. For those with short memories, a classic example of the risks inherent in doing that can be found back in the early 70's when some people were claiming to be able to hear a difference between amplifiers which delivered the same THD measurements on test and others claimed that there could be no audible difference if there was no measured difference. The problem was that the tests were all measuring the wrong thing, they were measuring THD as a percentage of the signal and what needed to be measured was the levels of each harmonic in the distortion. 2 amplifiers with the same measured percentage THD could have quite different levels of each harmonic in the distortion pattern and the differences in the distortion pattern are audible. What ASR has given us is comparisons of a couple of measurements of 2 switches, the EtherRegen and an unnamed switch. We have no idea whether there are measurable differences if other tests are used and we also have no idea whether, if the right tests were used, all switches would measurer similarly. Perhaps another switch would have produced different results to the unnamed switch. We have no way of knowing. The simple fact is that at present we have no idea whether the ASR tests were (a) the right tests to reveal any differences and some hard data from Uptone would help a lot on that point and (b) whether the switch the EtherREGEN was compared to actually has similar performance to the EtherREGEN and whether it is possible that some/many other switches would deliver different results on the tests which were conducted. I'm willing to accept ASR's results as honestly and accurate ly reporting what was measured but those results as they stand are incapable of actually establishing that the EtherREGEN doesn't do what Uptone claim.

What I think would give us reasonably compelling evidence that Uptone's claims are unfounded would be for Uptone to provide measurements which they claim show a difference, along with details of how those measurements were made and why those measurements are the relevant measurements and for several testers to replicate the Uptone test procedure and fail to find the differences that Uptone report, along with the results of a couple of rigorously designed and conducted listening tests which failed to show that listeners can reliably distinguish between the EtherREGEN and several other common ethernet switches.  Those listening tests are not going to be easy to design and conduct, should have a reasonable number of subects, and would take quite a bit of time to conduct. I would love to see test results from Uptone that others could attempt to replicate because that's a key part of the scientific method when it comes to proving things, and I would equally love to see the results of some genuinely professional quality listening tests. So far we have neither and it doesn't matter whether you believe Uptone or ASR, anyone who believes the other can validly throw the same criticisms at your position as you can throw at theirs. Currently no side has an advantage in this argument when it comes to providing compelling proof of their particular claims.

As I've said before, I have an EtherREGEN on order and should be getting it next month so I "have skin in the game" as the saying goes. I think people should not accept Uptone's claims uncritically but on the other hand they should also not accept ASR's tests and claims uncritically. There is currently no evidence for or against Uptone's cllaims that should not be treated with an equal degree of scepticism.

David,

Agree. I have also made a New Year’s Resolution to stop beating the Uptone dead horse and move on to other „projects“ in 2020.  Smile

Happy New Year


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - sam1000 - 03-Jan-2020

(31-Dec-2019, 09:52)thumb5 Wrote: @David A - your previous post is a very fair summary, I think.  For the record, I'm not a huge fan of the way ASR carried out and reported their test either.  I suspect we are never going to see what we both might like from UpTone; since ER is apparently selling as fast as they can make it, there is little benefit and quite a bit of risk to them in publishing data that would enable anyone to verify or falsify their claims.

I think up-tone has a good marketing strategy similar to "Supreme" brand. They make limited quantity and create a shortage. That does not mean the product has huge impact on SQ. I have bought 2 products from up-tone based on this marketing strategy and the products did little for me (USB Regen and LPS-1).
I'm not saying that ER has no impact, just wanted to point out that if they are selling as fast as they can make it, that does not necessarily mean you will hear a big improvement.

I find ASR reviews interesting and they do provide counterbalance to subjective impressions. Up-tone had to re-design one of their LPS, based on ASR review. 
I also like Devialet's approach where the improvements are measured instead of relying on subjective listening (This is from one of Mathew P's answer documented somewhere on this forum). 

Happy new year to everyone.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Antoine - 03-Jan-2020

That’s not marketing or any strategy. Check the size of the Uptone company, the BOM of the ER and other costs to see why they can only make 250 units a month. Also, nobody has said there’s any relevance in the number of units produced/month to any measure of improvement. I for one fail to see any logic there. They’re holding back formal reviews BTW because they simply can’t build more right now and are afraid reviews will create even bigger demand.

ASR’s review of the LPS-1 led to the discovery of high impedance leakage by John Swenson solved by shunting the negative output of the feeder supply to ground. I’d hardly call this a redesign. Unfortunate of course but don’t see why this is relevant in this thread. Perhaps you mentioned it to illustrate ASR is not all about negative bias, hidden agenda’s and imagined moral high grounds.

The Regen and LPS-1 are good products, especially at the moment they were released, perhaps not for you but I’m not sure what this tells us considering the very favorable reviews and user testimonies back in the day.

Something that measures good need not sound good or the other way around. If something has a good effect on sound quality and it measures badly or doesn’t show a difference in measurements one might just be measuring the wrong things. Smile


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 04-Jan-2020

(03-Jan-2020, 20:37)sam1000 Wrote:
I'm not saying that ER has no impact, just wanted to point out that if they are selling as fast as they can make it, that does not necessarily mean you will hear a big improvement.

Except I wouldn't say it's selling as fast as they can make it. They started taking orders before they made any, and they still haven't fulfilled all of the orders they received before they shipped any (I k now that  because mine is due to ship this month and I ordered it a couple of weeks before the first ones shipped). One way or another they generated a fair bit of interest before they started taking orders and they started taking orders a few weeks before they shipped the first production run, actually they started taking orders just before they started working on the first production run.

If it had been out for a while, all initial orders had been fulfilled, and they were selling as fast as they could make it, then I'd take that as a very positive sign. The fact that what they've been shipping and a lot of what they still haven't shipped was ordered before the first production run shipped means that all of the ones they've shipped and a lot of those they still have to make and ship were ordered based on a hope or expectation that it would do something positive because all of those orders were placed before anyone had a chance to hear one or read anyone's listening report.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Superdad - 04-Jan-2020

(04-Jan-2020, 04:34)David A Wrote: If it had been out for a while, all initial orders had been fulfilled, and they were selling as fast as they could make it, then I'd take that as a very positive sign. The fact that what they've been shipping and a lot of what they still haven't shipped was ordered before the first production run shipped means that all of the ones they've shipped and a lot of those they still have to make and ship were ordered based on a hope or expectation that it would do something positive because all of those orders were placed before anyone had a chance to hear one or read anyone's listening report.

Hi David:
Alex from UpTone here.
I need to correct you on your above speculation. As of this morning we have 396 unfilled EtherREGEN orders (putting us over the 1,000 units order mark), not counting the forward orders that our dealers have scheduled for coming months. Of those, only 98 of them were placed prior to first users receiving their units and beginning to post their impressions on November 9th.
So yes, about 600 units were ordered based on:
a) our extreme openness about the unique technical design;
b) faith in our firm having produced (and delivered on time) a number of other groundbreaking products in the past;
c) the reasonable price of the EtherREGEN combined with our 30-day, money-back guarantee.
But as you can see, a lot of orders have been based on subsequent user reviews.

As for anybody who thinks that we are limiting production as a "marketing strategy" to generate interest or demand, all I can say is that notion can only come from people who have never produced and sold products. Available products always sell faster than products on long back-order. There are a half-dozen factors limiting our production capacity (including world shortage of expensive differential isolators and one-of-a-kind differential flip-flops), not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars swings involved in pre-paying for production parts.

There are a number of other factually incorrect postulations that I spotted when I read this entire long thread last night, but for now I will let them slide. I simply have too much work to do this weekend--assuring that all 250 of the January-promised EtherREGENs get built and shipped out on time, as well as 20 JS-2s.
----

You and others have brought up ASR several times:
The trouble with the folks at AudioScienceReview is they do not understand, nor do they seem interested in learning about, the underlying issues of how common-mode deterministic jitter propagates in audio systems--including on packet-data interfaces such as Ethernet and USB—and thus induces voltage-change noise on ground-planes PCBs and chips, resulting in movement of clock thresholds.

People at ASR understand only the bits and the networking. But that is not what people are hearing with EtherREGEN and other clocking and digital cabling products. So they shout blindly and call us “snake oil.” Just remember all the medical scientists who were ridiculed when they first told others about germs…

I could go on, but there is no point. We will be publishing a bit about the theory behind this stuff--and it applies not just to the EtherREGEN, but to other Ethernet and USB devices--as well as some interesting measurements. The fingers-in-their-ears naysayers—at ASR and elsewhere—will still just dismiss and deride it, but that’s okay. What the EtherREGEN does is VERY easy to hear and users are quite happy.


RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Snoopy8 - 05-Jan-2020

@Superdad, welcome to the forum.

Compared with many forums, we have had a relatively tame thread on the EtherREGEN and people here have had a civil, but at times long winded, discussion. It is a reflection of this community that we do not need heavy moderation and threads have not been shutdown. I cannot even recall posts being deleted.

Hopefully, as more Devialet owners try the EtherREGEN and report their findings, any controversy will die down and it becomes another tool in our quest for music perfection ...