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+--- Thread: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation (/Thread-Audiophile-Grade-Ethernet-Switches-The-new-generation)
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - BoyScout - 21-Jul-2020
(20-Jul-2020, 09:33)thumb5 Wrote:That means there are more than one clocks in the chain (streamer + Dev?) and the Dev clock rules in the end, right?(20-Jul-2020, 07:36)sam1000 Wrote: Is there a way to know if Devialet is using the reclocked signal from EtherRegen with Roon RAAT?
The Devialet must be recovering the Ethernet clock from the incoming Ethernet signal and using it to clock in the bits from the Ethernet interface, because that's simply how Ethernet works. However this clock is completely asynchronous to the audio sample clock and therefore should have no effect on the stability or precision of the clock the Devialet uses to process the audio data carried in the Ethernet frames.
But if we add a better clock in the path it helps in therms of performance, correct me if i´m wrong, please, computer audio stills a field with a lot to learn, for me.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - thumb5 - 21-Jul-2020
(21-Jul-2020, 01:31)BoyScout Wrote: ...
That means there are more than one clocks in the chain (streamer + Dev?) and the Dev clock rules in the end, right?
Yes, that's what conventional audio engineering says: in a buffered DAC -- which a network DAC like the Devialet must be -- only the final clock matters. The clock used by the Ethernet interface is fixed and completely independent of the audio sample rate: for example, if you're using a 100base-T (100 Mbps) Ethernet interface it's clocked at 125 MHz no matter what data it's carrying (audio, file download, printer output, ...).
The networked DAC must have a memory buffer to assemble and store the sequence of audio samples delivered to it in the Ethernet frames. Any information about the timing of arrival of the Ethernet frames is lost by the time the audio samples go into in this buffer, because it is irrelevant to the rate at which the DAC has to get the samples out of the buffer and convert them to analog. The DAC clocks samples out of that buffer at whatever audio sample rate has been agreed between the streamer and the DAC; it's the accuracy and stability of that final clock that affects the analog output of the DAC.
(21-Jul-2020, 01:31)BoyScout Wrote: But if we add a better clock in the path it helps in therms of performance, correct me if i´m wrong, please, computer audio stills a field with a lot to learn, for me.
The Ethernet clock is independent of the audio sample rate, and is not used by the DAC to generate the analog output (because of the buffering), so any changes to the Ethernet clock should not make any objective difference to what comes out of the DAC.
Those who make audio-grade switches will argue differently of course, but as far as I know there is no compelling (repeatable, objective, non-anecdotal) evidence that putting "better" clocks in the Ethernet path makes the analog output of the DAC more accurate.
There are potentially other reasons apart from clock accuracy and stability why using different Ethernet switches in the path might have some (arguably very small) effect on the analog output of the DAC, but those are also controversial and haven't been objectively demonstrated (again, as far as I know).
All that said, I wouldn't presume to tell you what you might hear if you try it, because it depends on much more than just the hardware you're using.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - BoyScout - 21-Jul-2020
Much clear now to me, Ian. Thanks.
So, those who add external clocks to their systems, like Mutec and others, bypass the Dev dac using an alternative one?
The EtherRegen effect must come from the rest of its technical attributes and less from the influence of the built in clock, i suppose.
Sorry if i´m boder you with this subbject, but i need to understand a bit more from technical matters just to know when some decisions and listennings feelings makes sense.
Cheers.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - David A - 21-Jul-2020
Here's a link to the white paper Uptone Audio have published explaining what the EthereREGEN does and why they do it: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386
Actual listening always makes sense. Yes. people sometimes make mistakes about what they hear but then you can read a lot and still make mistakes as well. I've read the paper in my link and I don't really understand it because I don't have the technical background needed to understand it but I can tell you one thing. If you do have the background to understand it and if the claims made in it are correct, what this paper will not tell you are whether you will actually hear a difference with the EtherREGEN in your system, whether you will like or dislike the difference if you hear one, and if you do like the difference whether that difference is a big enough difference to you to justify you spending your money buying one instead of buying some other product instead. No matter how reliable the information you read is, it always makes sense to listen for yourself. There are some things you can only find out by listening, no matter how true and correct whatever you read about a product is.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - BoyScout - 21-Jul-2020
(21-Jul-2020, 12:48)David A Wrote: Here's a link to the white paper Uptone Audio have published explaining what the EthereREGEN does and why they do it: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386Thanks David,
I have already read and filtered everything that for me was technically perceived and what was not, remaining the good things they say about their product.
It has to be tested by forgetting all this... as you said.
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Marcin_gps - 27-Jul-2020
M12 SWITCH GOLD & OPTIMO 3 DUO reviewed by Soundrebels
The article is available in Polish for now. The official English translation will follow shortly. For now, please use Google Translate: https://soundrebels.com/telegartner-m12-switch-gold-optimo-3-duo/
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Lincolnlad - 27-Jul-2020
(02-Apr-2018, 21:01)Confused Wrote:I’ve just started to read this thread. I too have an Aurender N10 server, may I ask why an audiophile switch isn’t relevant to an Aurender user? I look forward to your reply (and maybe use the cash saved for a better AES/EBU cable!)(01-Apr-2018, 19:08)amabrok Wrote: So what's the idea exactly? Are these supposed to sit between your router and ur networked audio components?
Sent from my LG-H930 using Tapatalk
I think the idea behind the JCAT M12 Switch Gold is it sits between the audiophiles wallet and JCAT's annual profits account, it's primary function is to move money from one to the other.
Technically speaking, I think they are only of interest to people who run a remote computer to a network attached endpoint, such a microRendu, SOtM sMS-200 or similar. Maybe also with AIR or the CI board. Why do they work? Reducing noise is one aspect, so stopping RFI/EMI in the ethernet feed getting to your delicate hifi kit. Even a basic $20 switch will perform this function though, although not completely. There is then the controversial subject of high-quality low noise clocks in the switch, some say these are the route to audiophile joy, other say this is pointless for an Ethernet feed that will ultimately be buffered. I'd love to take part in a blind ABX test of the M12, I also bet that not one positive review of the thing will include a proper blind ABX test. I am not saying that the M12 will do nothing positive, just that the most glowing reviews will be subjective only.
For someone like yourself running an Aurender, they are of no use whatsoever, so you can save your money for something fun!
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Confused - 27-Jul-2020
@Lincolnlad - I think the answer to you N10 question is "it depends". My original comment above was based on the assumption that the N10 is only used to play music from its built in storage drives. Used this way, Ethernet is not in the audio signal path, so there is no possibly that an Ethernet switch will influence sound quality. Conversely, if you were to use the Aurender to stream Tidal or similar, then maybe it might. Maybe...
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/page/33/?tab=comments#comment-1038498
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-1005729
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Lincolnlad - 27-Jul-2020
(27-Jul-2020, 17:18)Confused Wrote: @Lincolnlad - I think the answer to you N10 question is "it depends". My original comment above was based on the assumption that the N10 is only used to play music from its built in storage drives. Used this way, Ethernet is not in the audio signal path, so there is no possibly that an Ethernet switch will influence sound quality. Conversely, if you were to use the Aurender to stream Tidal or similar, then maybe it might. Maybe...
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/page/33/?tab=comments#comment-1038498
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-1005729
Thank you so much for your reply. The Aurender N10 was recommended by a dealer who had sold me a Melco N1/A originally so I trusted him and he was right (mind you the price was right!). I subscribe to TIDAL and use the Aurender N10 to stream. My ears tell me TIDAL streaming at cd quality no where near as good as downloaded cd’s, however where an album has the MQA treatment it sounds way better than my downloaded cd’s. Hence I wonder if an audiophile switch would improve the MQA stream? Oh the joys...........
RE: "Audiophile Grade" Ethernet Switches - The new generation - Marcin_gps - 28-Jul-2020
If you think that a network switch can affect sound quality of streaming services and has no impact on local files then you are up for a surprise.