+- Devialet Chat (https://devialetchat.com)
+-- Forum: Devialet Chat (https://devialetchat.com/Forum-Devialet-Chat)
+--- Forum: Tweaker's Corner (https://devialetchat.com/Forum-Tweaker-s-Corner)
+--- Thread: Rake Angle (/Thread-Rake-Angle--7223)
Pages:
1
2
Rake Angle - Norty - 23-Apr-2021
What tracks do you use to set the rake angle on the speakers?
RE: Rake Angle - ogs - 24-Apr-2021
(23-Apr-2021, 12:35)Norty Wrote: What tracks do you use to set the rake angle on the speakers?
Hi
rake angle is usually used to describe the stylus' contact area in a vinyl record groove. Do you mean toe-in?
RE: Rake Angle - chrisc - 24-Apr-2021
You'd want tracks that will enable you to pinpoint instruments in a band, rather than a wall of sound. There should be a female singer, this will let you determine if the voice comes dead-centre
I'd suggest:
Don't know why - Norah Jones
The day before you came - Anne Sophie von Otter
Nicholas Drake - Judith Owen
Ghazali (Plucked double bass) - Renaud Garcia-Fons
Concertina in D, composed by Albrechtsberger
Georgia Swing - The Bourbon Street Stompers
Limehouse Blues - Jazz at the Pawnshop
Colour to the Moon - Allan Taylor
RE: Rake Angle - Norty - 24-Apr-2021
Sorry, I understood the rake angle on speaker to be the forward or (more likely backward tilt) of speakers. I've use the Sumiko setup guide and below is how he refers to it. The suggestion is based on Jennifer Warren's Ballad of the Runaway Horse the direction is as follows:
begin adjusting the critical rake angle of the anchor speaker.
If your speakers or speaker stands do not have adjustable spikes, you can try using door shims or wedge spacers. Adjust the spikes to get the speaker level across the front and raked back to get the beam of the tweeter firing an inch or two above your ears when seated in your listening position.Listen to the quality of Warnes’ voice. She should appear to be ear level or slightly above ear level in the soundstage.
Remember, this is a personal choice. Many audiophiles prefer ear level because the sound is slightly fuller. A little above ear level may sound more natural or like a live musical event.
What I was looking for if someone used songs of a singer standing and what approximate height that might be. I have struggled getting the Jennifer Warren one correct for standing singers. I can't use a laser on top of my speakers to point at the listening position as the top is rounded and the tweeter gets in the way.
RE: Rake Angle - ogs - 24-Apr-2021
Aha, I see.
Usually I just use a bubble level on top of the speakers, but with a rounded cabinet this may not be possible. I must say I find Sumiko's advice a little strange. If all speakers where equal (as in identical cross over and slope) this advice could apply, but this is not the case. By tilting the speakers backwards a little you change the timing behaviour and may achieve some of what Sumiko suggests. Take a look at the step response measurement from Stereophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-804-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements JA's comment on moving the mic down a few degrees sums it up.
As you can see your speakers are not time coincident. That may not be a problem, but 3-D imaging will often suffer some. Take a look at how Kii deals with this: https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker-measurements The Kii's are active DSP speakers so your 804D is not directly comparable. To achieve a similar step response and get better imaging without any tilting of the speakers you could use the convolver in Roon and for example Audiolense (XO) to create filters. If that seems daunting, Accurate Sound might be worth a try: https://accuratesound.ca/
RE: Rake Angle - chrisc - 24-Apr-2021
The SAM facility assists with time alignment, assuming the speakers are set up as the factory intended
RE: Rake Angle - ogs - 24-Apr-2021
Yes, in a way. SAM works up to maybe 250Hz and can help a lot in low mid and bass, but will do nothing about the transition from mid range to treble. And SAM does not get you better room/speaker response in the bass. You need proper parametric equalising to deal with that (like Sweet Room or similar).
RE: Rake Angle - Norty - 25-Apr-2021
Ogs, a lot of work on this with the article.....Thanks. I have just spent a lot of time to get my speakers right I am now just looking to get the height of the singer correct. I have do use Home Audio Fidelity for room correction. And I do use SAM 100%. Was fine before I moved the speakers but the 160 year old floors aren't as level as newer homes. Also simply setting at level does not work since I replaced the original feet with the IsoAcoustics and that raised about 2".
Truly appreciate all the help and the information has been very helpful.
RE: Rake Angle - Pim - 25-Apr-2021
SAM does help with time alignment but if your ears aren't in the best possible line with the speakers, it still won't do the job.
Interesting that you think about the 'correct' hight of the singer when you think about rake angle. Given that every recording is different, how would you ever know what 'correct' is?
A more important reason for rake angle is time alignment and it's possibly the easiest thing to work out. As mentioned before, use a female singer, preferably solo. The next thing to do is just sit in your listening chair and lift your head vertically up and down. The position that gives you the most natural voice (body) is the right position for your head. If that position doesn't work, adjust the speakers to line up with your head to achieve the same thing.
I have two positions for my speakers; one up close to the wall for daily listening, and another well into the room for best soundstage. I use a few felt pen marks to remember where they sound best so it's just a matter of putting them back where they were before. My chair then goes into its ideal position and then it's time for the cook books. I put the books (Specific ones for the right thickness) under the front feet (also IsoAcoustics) and then sit back and enjoy the music.
That's how you use rake angle to get the sound signature right. That's more important than getting the hight right, because if it sounds boring, the 'right' hight isn't going to make you enjoy it more. If you still want to achieve a certain hight for the singer, you could then lift the speakers up or down. But then you should still adjust the rake angle afterwards to get the time alignment right.
Remember this with every set up you do; if it sounds bright, boring or you just don't get the sound you like with most recordings, it'll be listening chair position, speaker position, toe in and rake that will fix it. Not cables, DSP or pricey sources. The latter can only do 10, maybe 20%. The former does the more important 80-90%.
RE: Rake Angle - ogs - 25-Apr-2021
@Pim I agree with all you say apart from DSP. DSP is the only way to make a conventional box speaker time-coincident. In 1991-92 Celestion demonstrated that a "digital equalizer", the DLP600, could make a speaker with a 12dB/octave cross-over - the SL600si - time-coincident. Again it is John Atkinson of Stereophile who show this in measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/celestion-sl600si-loudspeaker-dlp600-digital-equalizer-1992-measurements-part-2
Today Kef, Dynaudio, Kii and others make speakers that correct the time domain (and any phase anomaly from the cross-over) with DSP.