Expert Pro sound quality

[Wdw]

I had the chance to compare my own D120 with the new D220Pro in my own home system earlier this week.

I can agree with most of what has been said here; the new 220 obviously has better control in all ranges, plays with greater ease, offers more detail and presents a wider soundstage.
It is a better amp, no doubt.

But is it impressively better than the D120?
Or, to put it differently, did it make me want to spend an extra 3500,- to replace my D120?

The D220pro offers all of the same qualities that convinced me to buy a D120, and adds a tad more of everything, but, after listening to it for a couple of hours, I did not come away feeling like the D120 was a vastly inferior product.
D120 has it own sound which I have come to appreciate more and more every time I hear it.
In the end, it even felt like coming back home again when we switched back to the D120.

All in all, I have decided against upgrading and instead spend the money on my record collection.

Good to hear your views on this as a lot of us are no doubt weighing up the pros and cons of the upgrade.

Gotta drop in and toss in my two cents....the upgrade is, to my ear, so superior that I was surprised but also suspect that if I had the opportunity to compare a 400 to a 440Pro in a relatively short listening session I would have acknowledged the upgrade to be better but would, I imagine, have also questioned whether it was many thousands dollars better.  In my experience, the most significant audio upgrades I've enjoyed, at first listen, are often bewilderingly slow and quiet....as though the increased resolution has slowed and softened the music.  In this light the more exciting, but possibly more noisy, ride of the earlier versions is perceived to be more engaging.
Best to all D owners for the holidays.
Warren

[sam1000]

I just hooked up my second 250pro as a slave.
I had received my first upgraded unit about couple of weeks ago and I thought it was clear winner against 400expert. I refrained from posting the impressions here because I wanted the unit to burn in for a week or two. Few folks here have already described the improved areas like bass control, deeper bass, wide and 3D soundstage, higher resolution, realism etc. So, I wasn't sure what would 1000pro would bring to the table. I would have been perfectly happy with a single 250pro. However, I'm noticing the same improvements a couple of notches higher than the single unit. I was not expecting this much improvement with the additional unit. I'm not sure if my mind is playing some trick or am I a victim of some kind of a bias. The specs for dual mono are clearly superior in all respect and looks like they are delivering on those specs.
PS - My speakers sensitivity is 88.5db, so they are not really hard to drive either.

[Celts88]

I just hooked up my second 250pro as a slave.
I had received my first upgraded unit about couple of weeks ago and I thought it was clear winner against 400expert. I refrained from posting the impressions here because I wanted the unit to burn in for a week or two. Few folks here have already described the improved areas like bass control, deeper bass, wide and 3D soundstage, higher resolution, realism etc. So, I wasn't sure what would 1000pro would bring to the table. I would have been perfectly happy with a single 250pro. However, I'm noticing the same improvements a couple of notches higher than the single unit.  I was not expecting this much improvement with the additional unit. I'm not sure if my mind is playing some trick or am I a victim of some kind of a bias. The specs for dual mono are clearly superior in all respect and looks like they are delivering on those specs.
PS - My speakers sensitivity is 88.5db, so they are not really hard to drive either.

sam1000

My 2nd D-P is in France at the moment being upgraded, and when it returns will try and use it for the first couple of weeks as a single 250Pro (same as what I'm doing at the moment with my 1st upgraded D-P). Hoping to withstand the urge to hook it up in a 1000Pro set-up until it's been properly burned in. My 1st unit will have had 3-4 weeks by the time I get it back and hope to do the same run in time before going Mono (can I withstand the urge to hook-up both, only time will tell).

I suppose one benefit of my madness will be that I can then compare what a burned in 250Pro sounds against an new 250Pro. Also when I do eventually hook both up as a 1000Pro set-up I will get the same upgrade feeling as you Sam. At the moment I really don't know what the 1000Pro will give over a single 250Pro as it sounds great as is, so will be eager to hear the difference.

[boba2013]

Thanks guys. That was a higher word-count than usual. Just had to get it all out.

I'm amazed that even internet radio is improved.

Pim; you are correct about 'wanting it all' and then reacting to really getting it all. I don't want to embark on a lifetime of gear shopping or swapping, but the source is clearly critical. But we value the ability of the Sonus to get so many streaming services. I like Tidal, and had a subscription, but their catalogue is too limited. We listen to streaming sources most of the time and I sit and do more attentive listening about 10% of the time. Our disc collection is just not very large. So, suggestions welcome!

I will also play with the treble adjustment frequency, and will try AIR again. I haven't used it in over a year, so it will take a bit of re-learning. I haven't fired up the turntable yet, so another project for this weekend.

We have snow here on the coast. Sort of unusual but charming, in a wintery way. A good excuse to stay indoors.

Oh, the pic is of a cat that was on the dock where we tied up last summer when sailing in Croatia. He looks nothing like me.

Hi Damon. West coast? Same here. I'm In Kits If you ever want to connect. As  to my new 250 Pro, I'm still undecided. It's a very smooth clean picture but I'm still missing an emotional connection that I had with the older model. It's just a personal preference.

HI Damon and Woodstock

Hmm, seems to be a good representation of Devialet out here on the west coast, (live just west of Cambie on 8th Ave), with experience on the upgrade. I have facilitated back and forth on the upgrade, (D250-->250Pro), for months, and finally decided to go ahead. Having upgraded from D120 to D200 and then to D250, each time has been a very satisfying move so fingers crossed.

When I did the D120-->D200 upgrade, I also upgraded all cables, (speaker and interconnects) to Siltech Anniversary Silver which I thought might push the sound a bit to harsh or tinny side but not at all. The combined upgrade was substantial and then the upgrade to the D250 was simply more in all facets of sound reproduction. 

I now have perhaps a month to wait for the Pro250 but it seems by all counts, will be worth it. 

On another note, I have been using a Linn Majik DSM with the amp shut down, (just using the streaming portion), which with LINN's Kazoo lets me play Radio Paradise at 320K ACC. Actually sounds right up there with Tidal and other streaming sources. Library is ripped and also plays through the LINN. I hope the promised Streaming card for the Devialet provides the same high quality and reliable streaming and library playback.

Hoping to be able to throw my hat into the ring of satisfied up-graders!!!

Cheers

Bob

[Damon]

Bob/ Boba,
Good morning! We're close; I'm near Main & 20th Ave; practically neighbours.

I may be a day or two premature in posting, as I want to listen further to test my query, but it is too early to shovel snow. But on to the point of this post (it won't be another massive text bomb).

I believe the 220P is softening, slightly, in the treble. It probably has about 50 hours on it. I did sometimes feel the 'glare' was coming from the left speaker (when facing the system), closest to the amp and a side wall; the other speaker has no side wall as it is beside two other rooms that open off the living room. But here is the thing, and I'd like some thoughts from others.

One speaker cable is fairly 'linear' on its way from the amp to the speaker, a 12' length. The other speaker cable was coiled beneath the shelves and connected to a speaker literally 15" from the amp. The power cord was also in a bit of a coil, and sitting on top of the speaker cable. A couple of days ago, I decided to change this pile of wire, so I adjusted the power cord so that it sits in a straighter run and is at least 12"- 15" (30cm - 45 cm) from the closest speaker cable. I also made a long, clean loop out of the previously coiled speaker cable (under the couch and back) so it is now straighter and well away from other cables, except at the back of the amp.

I am.... certain, that this has changed the sound, and eliminated the glare I felt I had before. I notice it not just when sitting and listening, but also when I have music on and I'm walking around doing other things. So the change sometimes catches me, I become aware of it, even when not focusing on the sound.

I can hardly dress myself, let alone my cables, and I've never fussed with them before. My question to the crowd is whether on not it is logical or possible that the power and speaker cable can interfere with the sound if they are heaped on top of each other? Could that reasonably be the cause of the treble character I heard before? It seems to be gone now.

BjornWiman; your description of the Pro soundstage delivery is exactly correct- much better than my description. Thanks.

[Antoine]

Hi Damon, it's absolutely a good practice to do proper cable management/cable dressing. Rule number one is to keep EMI/RFI emitting power cables away from signal carrying and speaker cables. When they need to cross do it at a 90 degree angle. This is especially important if you use unshielded cables.

Spooling of cables is also 'not done'. This changes the electrical parameters of the cable like inductance and resistance. I'm sure you've once heard of the extreme example of spools of extension cords shorting out becuase of overheating because they weren't 'unspooled'.

Getting your cables of the floor as much as possible is good practice too as is preventing them to touch each other/other objects. This because of both microphonics and static electricity build up.

Cleaning connectors every once in a while is recommendable as well.

If you Google for 'cable dressing hifi', 'audiophile cable dressing', 'hifi cable management' or any similar search words you'll find many more elaborate practical tips as well as the reasons behind all this.

[Damon]

Thanks Antoine,

I admit I have neglected all the things you mention. The microphonics effect you mention from the floor to the cables is something I never thought of. My speakers have bottom ports, and so their effect on the floor is noticeable. My equipment is on wall-mounted shelves. That was not done thinking about sound; it was just fun to build shelves and brackets are easier than legs.

Getting the power and speaker cables separated must be important, and I'm going to fuss with the cable arrangement today. I'm getting the feeling that I now have a system that actually shows the effects of these things, like cable arrangement, whereas I think my past systems simply did not really have the ability to do that.

Crikey, snow in Vancouver; haven't had much of that in a few years. A few minutes with the shovel and broom and I'll have cardio and upper body out of the way for the day.

[yabaVR]

Thanks Antoine,

I admit I have neglected all the things you mention. The microphonics effect you mention from the floor to the cables is something I never thought of. My speakers have bottom ports, and so their effect on the floor is noticeable. My equipment is on wall-mounted shelves. That was not done thinking about sound; it was just fun to build shelves and brackets are easier than legs.

Getting the power and speaker cables separated must be important, and I'm going to fuss with the cable arrangement today. I'm getting the feeling that I now have a system that actually shows the effects of these things, like cable arrangement, whereas I think my past systems simply did not really have the ability to do that.

Crikey, snow in Vancouver; haven't had much of that in a few years. A few minutes with the shovel and broom and I'll have cardio and upper body out of the way for the day.

Hi Damon,

I think your findings are very remarkable (espacially for others) if we look at how everybody here is having a different experience with his new Pro and even the Experts.

It is nearly impossible to judge over a listening experience one has if we can not have at least a grasp on the system he was listening to. So pictures are indispensable if someone is not satisfied with the performance of his system. Me, Antoine and others would have seen the problem you have with the cables within the first view on a pic.

It might also be fact that the 'old' Experts were more forgiving and the Pros bring something onto surface that did not stand out before as you mentioned.

So, is it a good idea to start a thread with well known concepts and clues on what to do and don't? Or will this thread be posted to extinction by nonbelievers with all their 'buts and whens and ifs'? I don't know.

I can imagine it would be very usefull to have a list of 'Do' and 'Do not' where you can check off different concepts and flaws. If you don't believe in a special concept just leave it out and don't elaborate on 'why not'.

gui

[Damon]

All,
I wanted to follow up my long post (#204) and update my opinion about the Expert Pro sound quality. I should reference many other wise and helpful posts from others, but that would cover several threads and would take me hours to do. Instead, I'll simply say a universal, 'thanks' to posts that followed my upgrade impressions essay.

One aspect of the sound of the Pro that I expressed some concern about was the high end, the treble, and that I felt it might be too .... much, or too metallic? The point of this post is to update that impression. Again, I hope this is useful to others thinking of making the upgrade who might be wondering about the changes the upgrade brings.

About two weeks ago, I rearranged the cables in my system; I created space between the power cords from the speaker cables, and unrolled the loose coils that one speaker cable was in. It is now a long loop under a couch (chesterfield or sofa). I have to say that I was amazed that I was able to hear a difference. The 'glare' or 'metallic' haze that I heard in the top end softened to the extend that I turned the treble up from -2.0 db back to 0 db.

Dr. Tone suggested a change of speaker cables, and I thought his suggestion was steering me in the right direction. Over the christmas holidays I obtained some Analysis Plus Oval 9 speaker cable from the very kind and helpful LeeC, a member of this forum. The AP cable replaced the QED silver 12 that I have been using. The QED is very similar (or probably a bit better) than the Nordost Purple Flare cable in sound quality. I installed the Analysis Plus cable yesterday, and have listened to the system quite carefully for two days. I won't go on about the cables, except to say that the Analysis Plus are much better; the point here is that my concerns or caveat about the high end on the Pro is fully and completely erased.

Correctly separating the power cord and speaker cables made a big difference, I am certain. Curiously, I always felt the left speaker, closest to the amp, was 'sharper' in sound. That was the speaker who's speaker cable was coiled, and which had the amp power cord sitting on top of the speaker cable. So rearranging the cables around that speaker logically made a difference to the sound from that speaker.

Changing from the QED speaker cables, which in retrospect I believe are 'tipped up' in the treble (probably like the lower-end Nordost) in comparison to the Analysis Plus, has refined the sound even further. Others have commented that the Pro sounds more 'analogue' (Confused? Thumb5?) and now I have to agree. The Pro has a wonderful clear, clean, revealing upper end, but it is without harshness. The bass is simply awesome.

In summary, the Pro is more revealing on the treble end of the spectrum, but it is not harsh or sharp. In my case- in my system- the faults I believed I heard were of my own making (sloppy cable arrangement) and in having speaker cables that are very likely not balanced in their presentation.

Cleaning up the cable placement made a noticeable difference in the sound quality. Changing the speaker cables also made a difference. With the Analysis Plus cables the sound is less 'in your face' but it is more midrange forward; the full detail of treble and bass is present but the sharpness that I had commented on earlier is gone.* I've listened in the 'listening chair', as well as while in other rooms, and when sitting directly beside one of the speakers. With cables well-orgainized and more balanced speaker cables installed, the 220 Pro is amazing.

Now listening to Calexico's Hot Rail album and All the Old Showstoppers by the New Pornographers. Loud and totally tubular.... (hybrid of surf slang and tube-audio play on words). What I mean is, it is really, really good. No harshness or sharpness or metallic sheen. It is also correct to note that I think the D220 Pro has softened a bit over 50 or 60 hours of playing, but the cable dressing and cable changing made a notable and important difference in my system; more noticeable than the burn-in effect of the amp.

Verdict on the D200 Pro:  Rock, classical, ska, acoustic, jazz, electro-ambient & amateur recordings, this thing sings. This is the amp I always wanted, and now I have it. 


(Thanks to Pim, Antoine, boba2013, Wdw, Axel, YabaVR, LeeC, Thumb 5, Confused, Dr. Tone and others. Also to Woodstock; even though he is not a fan of the Pro- I appreciated and respect his opinions about the SQ of the Pro update).

* I know that the AP Oval 9 cables are not filtering out information as I am getting more information and music with the AP cables than I heard before. Source file: 'Down to the River to Pray' from the 'Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?' soundtrack. So many layers of of voices, room acoustics... just wow.

[thumb5]

Hello Damon - great to hear that you've been able to resolve your niggling concern about the top end. Sounds like you're a very happy man!