Innuos Zenith ripper/streamer

[innuos]

Here's some maths for the budget conscious SQ freak....

sT $1455
Don't bother with a LPSU for the sT, it really will not make much difference.
Drop the SOtM, use an ultraRendu = $875
LPS-1 for ultraRendu = $395
Mutec MC3+USB = $1160

Total = $3885, a little cheaper than the Zenith

Now for some speculation.....   I reckon that the above would offer significantly better sound quality into a Devialet Expert versus the Zenith.  I have not listened to the Zenith, so this IS speculation, but read back though the thread, it does not look like the Innous has done that much to optimise the USB output, add this to reports that even top notch USB sources such as the Aurender N10 sound better via AES/EBU, I am sure you get the idea.  Of course, if someone ever gets to actually try the Innous in a A/B test with something equivalent, maybe the results will prove different.

Hi,

Just a few comments with regards to the topic above. The USB output on the Zenith can be optimised in many ways that may not be as obvious as adding a separate USB board. 

First, the architecture of the USB Controller makes a difference. Typical boards have a USB controller at the CPU level and another at the motherboard level. When we compared boards to use with the Zenith, boards with two-level controllers always shown higher levels of EMI on the USB line. The motherboard on the Zenith only has a single USB controller directly on the CPU and the CPU alone has it's own separate linear power supply. If you have ever heard the difference in sound quality between a Zen (which uses a single LPSU) against the Zenith (with 3 LPSU) you'd know right away there is a significant difference. This is what differentiates the Zen and the Zenith the most, more so than using SSDs.

Second, we've worked on reducing vibration on the electronics of the Zenith. Whilst the clocks on a Zenith are not OCXO 10ppb, this vibration control and the LPSU do make all clocks on the motherboard perform their best and there's no cabling to contend with as when using external boards. 

Third, don't dismiss the difference the software and firmware can make to the sound of the system. The memory playback alone on the Zenith makes a very audible difference.

I wouldn't generally agree the linear PSU on a SonicTransport i5 wouldn't make a difference on the setup you describe. This would pretty much imply any noisy NAS would do the job just as well. That has not been our experience. In fact, a simple test we demonstrate all the time is testing a Zenith sending music via UPnP to a streamer in two scenarios:

1. The Zenith and the streamer both connected to a regular router/switch. 
2. The Zenith connected to the router/switch and the streamer connected to the streamer port of the Zenith

The same cables are used throughout. It's very audible the difference between both, particularly the size of the soundstage. Some people are really puzzled of how much a difference it can make. It just shows that ethernet cables can transmit EMI just like other cables, despite their construction. It doesn't affect the bits being transmitted but it does, directly or indirectly, affect the electronics on the other side. It seems even a dCS Network Bridge benefits from it based on some tests - you can read it at Head-Fi.

In summary, my recommendation would be: do not ignore what happens upstream of the streamer (pun not intended).

Hope this helps.

Nuno

[Confused]

Nuno - It is excellent to see manufacturers contributing on forums such as this, I wish it happened more often to be honest. Good stuff! That said, I have seen some manufacturers forced off other forums due to very opinionated fanatics, troll like behaviour and so on. It can be dangerous territory, but Devialet Chat is generally a civilised place to visit.

That said, I can think of some counter arguments to what you have said above, some network end points and products like the Mutec MC3+USB are designed specifically to eliminate the 'upstream' noise, so the idea is that you can indeed have a 'noisy NAS' and then rely on the down-steam kit to eliminate any noise that has crept in. So different approaches. As I have never listened to a Zenith I have no grounds to argue which approach wins on a 'bang for buck' basis. To me it looks like a big part of the Zenith design philosophy is not to have the noise in the first place, and I have no argument with that being a fundamentally good idea.

From a very specific Devialet point of view (this is after all a Devialet forum), one problem I see with the Zenith is that it outputs via USB. Not an issue in itself, but all things being equal it is generally considered that the Devialet Expert sounds best when fed via it's AES/EBU input. An interesting point to consider here is the new Devialet OS Intelligence Core Infamy board that is soon to be installed in the latest 'Pro' models. This board has an upgraded USB input for our beloved amps. Time will tell as to just how good this new USB input will prove to be, but maybe future investigations will reveal that the best input for a Devialet Expert Pro is in fact USB. Time will tell. I also note that there are two dealers that list Innuos products located less than an hour's drive from my house. Maybe I'll get to hear one soon, listening to stuff is far more fun than debating design philosophies, I just need that new board with it's USB input, I believe it might be available soon?

[innuos]

ConfusedNuno - It is excellent to see manufacturers contributing on forums such as this, I wish it happened more often to be honest.  Good stuff!  That said, I have seen some manufacturers forced off other forums due to very opinionated fanatics, troll like behaviour and so on.  It can be dangerous territory, but Devialet Chat is generally a civilised place to visit.

That said, I can think of some counter arguments to what you have said above, some network end points and products like the Mutec MC3+USB are designed specifically to eliminate the 'upstream' noise, so the idea is that you can indeed have a 'noisy NAS' and then rely on the down-steam kit to eliminate any noise that has crept in.  So different approaches.  As I have never listened to a Zenith I have no grounds to argue which approach wins on a 'bang for buck' basis.  To me it looks like a big part of the Zenith design philosophy is not to have the noise in the first place, and I have no argument with that being a fundamentally good idea.

From a very specific Devialet point of view (this is after all a Devialet forum), one problem I see with the Zenith is that it outputs via USB.  Not an issue in itself, but all things being equal it is generally considered that the Devialet Expert sounds best when fed via it's AES/EBU input.  An interesting point to consider here is the new Devialet OS Intelligence Core Infamy board that is soon to be installed in the latest 'Pro' models.  This board has an upgraded USB input for our beloved amps.  Time will tell as to just how good this new USB input will prove to be, but maybe future investigations will reveal that the best input for a Devialet Expert Pro is in fact USB.  Time will tell.  I also note that there are two dealers that list Innuos products located less than an hour's drive from my house.  Maybe I'll get to hear one soon, listening to stuff is far more fun than debating design philosophies, I just need that new board with it's USB input, I believe it might be available soon?

Hi,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Indeed I tend to lurk around some forums for quite some time before intervening. There are very good debates here and I'm happy to see forum users behaving in a very civilised manner. Being with Innuos, and clearly being identified as such, does make my opinions biased, if not on purpose then at least by our experience or view on how certain things work. Digital is a delicate area and I find myself taking a good amount of time double-checking what I write. We don't claim to be the "know all, do all". Digital is still in its infancy - everybody has plenty to learn. I'm happy to share our experience but please take my opinions here as just another user sharing his experience. 

I completely agree with you with regards to inputs and we do have reports from customers using the Zenith who have told us that using it with the Mutec and AES provided better results than connecting the Zenith via USB to a Devialet. It's really down to the implementation of both the source and the DAC/Amplifier. Each combination will have their own optimum connection and it may vary on many factors, cables included. If you connect a regular PC/Mac to the Devialet via USB and Ethernet, our experience is that via Ethernet is superior. With our Zenith, and particularly the SE, it's the opposite, our experience so far has been that USB sounds better. It's also difficult to say "AES sounds better", I'd rather say the Mutec connected via AES input to the Devialet sounds better than the source direct via USB. It doesn't necessarily mean another source with AES will sound better than that same source via USB.

In terms of power noise, indeed our view is that it's better to not get things dirty in the first place than try and clean them up afterwards. It's a bit like tainting a pristine mountain spring and then try to get it exactly like it was before. You can make it drinkeable, but it's unlikely it will ever be the same again... There's always something that seeps through and influences the rest of the chain. Maybe one day we get a connection based on quantum entanglement and this can finally be solved ;-)

[innuos]

Nuno - It is excellent to see manufacturers contributing on forums such as this, I wish it happened more often to be honest.  Good stuff!  That said, I have seen some manufacturers forced off other forums due to very opinionated fanatics, troll like behaviour and so on.  It can be dangerous territory, but Devialet Chat is generally a civilised place to visit.

That said, I can think of some counter arguments to what you have said above, some network end points and products like the Mutec MC3+USB are designed specifically to eliminate the 'upstream' noise, so the idea is that you can indeed have a 'noisy NAS' and then rely on the down-steam kit to eliminate any noise that has crept in.  So different approaches.  As I have never listened to a Zenith I have no grounds to argue which approach wins on a 'bang for buck' basis.  To me it looks like a big part of the Zenith design philosophy is not to have the noise in the first place, and I have no argument with that being a fundamentally good idea.

From a very specific Devialet point of view (this is after all a Devialet forum), one problem I see with the Zenith is that it outputs via USB.  Not an issue in itself, but all things being equal it is generally considered that the Devialet Expert sounds best when fed via it's AES/EBU input.  An interesting point to consider here is the new Devialet OS Intelligence Core Infamy board that is soon to be installed in the latest 'Pro' models.  This board has an upgraded USB input for our beloved amps.  Time will tell as to just how good this new USB input will prove to be, but maybe future investigations will reveal that the best input for a Devialet Expert Pro is in fact USB.  Time will tell.  I also note that there are two dealers that list Innuos products located less than an hour's drive from my house.  Maybe I'll get to hear one soon, listening to stuff is far more fun than debating design philosophies, I just need that new board with it's USB input, I believe it might be available soon?

P.S. With regards to the Mutec some say upgrading its internal power supply to a good linear power supply makes it even better. There's a reason why the REF10 master clock already implements its power supply with a LPS...
Also an interesting A/B would be the Mutec with the REF10 conected via AES with the SoTM tX-USBUltra powered with a good LPSU, connected to the REF10 and connected to the Devialet via USB. Would the Mutec provide better sound? Would AES provide it an edge? Or would the USB implementation on the SoTM be superior? This would be a very interesting shootout...

[audio_engr]

Hi All,

Can we expect sometime soon someone here testing the Innuos Zenith ? I am eager for the outcome !! Thanks in advance ..

[petrik]

Nuno - It is excellent to see manufacturers contributing on forums such as this, I wish it happened more often to be honest.  Good stuff!  That said, I have seen some manufacturers forced off other forums due to very opinionated fanatics, troll like behaviour and so on.  It can be dangerous territory, but Devialet Chat is generally a civilised place to visit.

That said, I can think of some counter arguments to what you have said above, some network end points and products like the Mutec MC3+USB are designed specifically to eliminate the 'upstream' noise, so the idea is that you can indeed have a 'noisy NAS' and then rely on the down-steam kit to eliminate any noise that has crept in.  So different approaches.  As I have never listened to a Zenith I have no grounds to argue which approach wins on a 'bang for buck' basis.  To me it looks like a big part of the Zenith design philosophy is not to have the noise in the first place, and I have no argument with that being a fundamentally good idea.

From a very specific Devialet point of view (this is after all a Devialet forum), one problem I see with the Zenith is that it outputs via USB.  Not an issue in itself, but all things being equal it is generally considered that the Devialet Expert sounds best when fed via it's AES/EBU input.  An interesting point to consider here is the new Devialet OS Intelligence Core Infamy board that is soon to be installed in the latest 'Pro' models.  This board has an upgraded USB input for our beloved amps.  Time will tell as to just how good this new USB input will prove to be, but maybe future investigations will reveal that the best input for a Devialet Expert Pro is in fact USB.  Time will tell.  I also note that there are two dealers that list Innuos products located less than an hour's drive from my house.  Maybe I'll get to hear one soon, listening to stuff is far more fun than debating design philosophies, I just need that new board with it's USB input, I believe it might be available soon?

I would love to hear your comments how the Innuos sounds when compared to your other hardware

Innuos Zenith mkII and the SE versions look particularly interesting.

[GuillaumeB]

If Innuos wanted to send me a unit for review I'd be happy to give everyone my findings

Guillaume

[petrik]

If Innuos wanted to send me a unit for review I'd be happy to give everyone my findings

Guillaume

That would be very kind of you Guillaume. You have been writing very valuable and helpful reviews also before

[innuos]

If Innuos wanted to send me a unit for review I'd be happy to give everyone my findings

Guillaume

Hi Guillaume,

That can be arranged. We'd start with a Zenith first as we currently have our demo SEs on shows and other reviews.
I'm currently in Lyon for the HifiLink Audio Show for this weekend. PM me and we can discuss the details.

P.S. If any member is around Lyon this weekend, come and say hi. Were the ones with Innuos shirts :-)

[Celts88]

If Innuos wanted to send me a unit for review I'd be happy to give everyone my findings

Guillaume

Hi Guillaume,

That can be arranged. We'd start with a Zenith first as we currently have our demo SEs on shows and other reviews.
I'm currently in Lyon for the HifiLink Audio Show for this weekend. PM me and we can discuss the details.

P.S. If any member is around Lyon this weekend, come and say hi. Were the ones with Innuos shirts :-)

Guillaume, I would very much like to hear your thought's on the Zenith.

PS - Nuno if you ever happen to be over here in Aus, feel free to drop into Perth with an SE (I'll have a few coldies in the fridge to wet your whistle)