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How to get the best Phono Signal?
#11
‘Here’s an update. My 220 Pro is now also C/I upgraded.

I tried using just the SUT’s inline and passive and I got no reduction in hiss. The hiss was a pain in the arse and confirmed my view previously expressed that the Devialet phono stage is sub standard and not of a quality that matches its digital input capability. If I am wrong, and noting that some of you seem to be satisfied with your Devialet phono stage input, it begs the question, are all our amps equal? Do some of us have better performing kit/modules than others? Adjusting load and gain with the remote on the ‘fly’ made bugger all difference. Making adjustments in the configurator also brought no progress.

I have already said that a valve phonostage with line input was hiss free, albeit a littler coloured.

Just to remind you, my cartridge is an Ortofon Kontra B.

I am now using a Ray Samuels F-117 Nighthawk phonostage with my 220 C/I Pro and it brings total hiss free, on the fly adjustment, uncoloured very revealing sound, plugged into ‘line’. It is so good it has revived my love of vinyl and I’ve been spinning many more discs rather than listening to my streamed services.

For sure I am happy now, although a little frustrated that Devialet could not spend enough attention to detail to get this Phono aspect of the amps up to equivalent hi end standard, and of course, I’ve had to introduce an additional unit to my system when my overall objective was to minimalise as completely as possible.

Those of you that disagree with my findings are probably operating at a different listening level to me, or, as I have suggested, there is some inconsistency with the quality of products (in this case, the Phono stage) Devialet sell us.

Who knows?
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#12
(16-Jan-2018, 01:18)Greg Wrote: ‘Here’s an update. My 220 Pro is now also C/I upgraded.

I tried using just the SUT’s inline and passive and I got no reduction in hiss. The hiss was a pain in the arse and confirmed my view previously expressed that the Devialet phono stage is sub standard and not of a quality that matches its digital input capability. If I am wrong, and noting that some of you seem to be satisfied with your Devialet phono stage input, it begs the question, are all our amps equal? Do some of us have better performing kit/modules than others? Adjusting load and gain with the remote on the ‘fly’ made bugger all difference. Making adjustments in the configurator also brought no progress.

I have already said that a valve phonostage with line input was hiss free, albeit a littler coloured.

Just to remind you, my cartridge is an Ortofon Kontra B.

I am now using a Ray Samuels F-117 Nighthawk phonostage with my 220 C/I Pro and it brings total hiss free, on the fly adjustment, uncoloured very revealing sound, plugged into ‘line’. It is so good it has revived my love of vinyl and I’ve been spinning many more discs rather than listening to my streamed services.

For sure I am happy now, although a little frustrated that Devialet could not spend enough attention to detail to get this Phono aspect of the amps up to equivalent hi end standard, and of course, I’ve had to introduce an additional unit to my system when my overall objective was to minimalise as completely as possible.

Those of you that disagree with my findings are probably operating at a different listening level to me, or, as I have suggested, there is some inconsistency with the quality of products (in this case, the Phono stage) Devialet sell us.

Who knows?

Hi Greg

I said this on a related issue recently: 
https://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=4191&page=4

"With MC and a Koetsu set to 0.35 mv I get hiss quite audible from listening seat. Par for the course on most phono stages with low output carts. Another Dev user (Koetsu Tiger eye and Lyra) also gets same level of hiss and in a quite different room.
I tried a SUT for a few months in my system (EAR MC4) but overall found it slightly softened dynamics and also had a slight, not unpleasant, sheen to the sound. Immediately I preferred it without, including the hiss."

If memory serves I used the EAR MC4 SUT on the 4 Ohm tap between the TT arm and Dev Phono taps. I also got hiss until I selected 'High loading' on RAM, can't remember what mv sensitivity setting.The result was no hiss, good volume but slightly coloured as I've said above. I also tried two other phono line stages (Audio Research and Ayre) both were ok but I felt they were dynamically constrained compared to the Dev and less involving - also more boxes and cables which is a real step backwards.

My feeling is that the Dev Phono is one of the best in the business, but if you have a low output MC then you will have hiss. The bottom line is can you put up with the hiss? 

I dont mind it as it doesn't bother me when a track is playing. Also I quite like it as an indicator that phono is on and to be careful dropping the Koetsu into the groove. With amplifiers as powerful as Devialet dropping the needle onto a record when the volume is cranked up has blown up many a speaker!

Kevin
Devialet 1000 Pro; Magico A5 loudspeakers; Metronome T3a Signature CD Transport; dCS Network Bridge; Kuzma M turntable; Kuzma 4Point14 tonearm; Koetsu Sky Blue; Benzmicro LPS; Audioquest Vodka Ethernet; Transparent Reference Digital RCA-RCA; Transparent Reference XL MM2 speaker cable; Transparent Reference mains cable; PS Audio P5 PowerPlant; Artesania and Finite Elemente equipment racks 
North Somerset, UK     
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#13
(16-Jan-2018, 10:54)RRKIBM Wrote:
(16-Jan-2018, 01:18)Greg Wrote: ‘Here’s an update. My 220 Pro is now also C/I upgraded.

I tried using just the SUT’s inline and passive and I got no reduction in hiss. The hiss was a pain in the arse and confirmed my view previously expressed that the Devialet phono stage is sub standard and not of a quality that matches its digital input capability. If I am wrong, and noting that some of you seem to be satisfied with your Devialet phono stage input, it begs the question, are all our amps equal? Do some of us have better performing kit/modules than others? Adjusting load and gain with the remote on the ‘fly’ made bugger all difference. Making adjustments in the configurator also brought no progress.

I have already said that a valve phonostage with line input was hiss free, albeit a littler coloured.

Just to remind you, my cartridge is an Ortofon Kontra B.

I am now using a Ray Samuels F-117 Nighthawk phonostage with my 220 C/I Pro and it brings total hiss free, on the fly adjustment, uncoloured very revealing sound, plugged into ‘line’. It is so good it has revived my love of vinyl and I’ve been spinning many more discs rather than listening to my streamed services.

For sure I am happy now, although a little frustrated that Devialet could not spend enough attention to detail to get this Phono aspect of the amps up to equivalent hi end standard, and of course, I’ve had to introduce an additional unit to my system when my overall objective was to minimalise as completely as possible.

Those of you that disagree with my findings are probably operating at a different listening level to me, or, as I have suggested, there is some inconsistency with the quality of products (in this case, the Phono stage) Devialet sell us.

Who knows?

Hi Greg

I said this on a related issue recently: 
https://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=4191&page=4

"With MC and a Koetsu set to 0.35 mv I get hiss quite audible from listening seat. Par for the course on most phono stages with low output carts. Another Dev user (Koetsu Tiger eye and Lyra) also gets same level of hiss and in a quite different room.
I tried a SUT for a few months in my system (EAR MC4) but overall found it slightly softened dynamics and also had a slight, not unpleasant, sheen to the sound. Immediately I preferred it without, including the hiss."

If memory serves I used the EAR MC4 SUT on the 4 Ohm tap between the TT arm and Dev Phono taps. I also got hiss until I selected 'High loading' on RAM, can't remember what mv sensitivity setting.The result was no hiss, good volume but slightly coloured as I've said above. I also tried two other phono line stages (Audio Research and Ayre) both were ok but I felt they were dynamically constrained compared to the Dev and less involving - also more boxes and cables which is a real step backwards.

My feeling is that the Dev Phono is one of the best in the business, but if you have a low output MC then you will have hiss. The bottom line is can you put up with the hiss? 

I dont mind it as it doesn't bother me when a track is playing. Also I quite like it as an indicator that phono is on and to be careful dropping the Koetsu into the groove. With amplifiers as powerful as Devialet dropping the needle onto a record when the volume is cranked up has blown up many a speaker!

Kevin

Um. I have been following this, and other “debates” on the quality of the phono input of the Devialet, with interest and wonder whether I am particularly lucky, or others are particularly unlucky, with the phono inputs of their Devs. I use an Audio Technica AT-OC9 mkiii, MC cartridge, which has a rated output of 0.4mv and a recommended loading of > 200ohms. I have set my phono input system at 400 micro volts and loading at “high”. My normal listening gain, with phono, is circa - 26db, and at that setting I can’t hear any discernible hiss even with my ear against my loudspeakers. I have turned gain up to circa. - 12db before hiss becomes noticeable with ear at speaker - at that level, if playing music, the cones would be in serious danger, as would my ears! I have also, as a brief experiment, reduced output to 350 micro volts, and again the level of hiss was indiscernible until ear bursting levels of gain!

I also think that the Sound Quality of the phono output is, to my ears, extremely good, giving a very detailed, dynamic and open sound. My own view is that the phono input of the Devialet is of a very high standard and I, personally, certainly can not agree with @Greg that the Phono of the Devialet is in any way sub standard  Huh.

David
1. NUC6i5SYH running ROON ROCK > ROON/AIR > Ethernet > Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity> Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers,
or, as alternative, 
2. Wyred4Sound MS-2 Server, Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity, Theta Jade CD Transport, Pure 702ES Tuner, Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers, misc cables

                                       UK
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#14
When Devialet was still a very tiny company and had only one product (and a simple engineering based web site) Oxford Audio had a visit from one of the designers, who had been given the job of designing the phono stage in the D-Premier.
He told me that the phono stage, in terms of components used, was comfortably the most expensive part of the amplifier.
I was very happy with the phono stage on my D-Premier.
I don't know whether it changed when the new "Expert" line was added and the D-Premier could be updated to 250 spec - and later further.
I had my D-Premiers (I had added a second a few months after the first) updated to 800 spec. I have the impression that the MC stage was slightly noisier than before but I actually use an Ortofon T3000 SUT with my cartridge currently. I bought it along with a MC3000 II decades ago and have used it with the Jubilee and currently and A90 on the Devialet.
IMO the SQ is excellent.
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#15
Thank you for your responses. All subjective observation is helpful, but what you have all said doesn’t alter my own conclusions. I continue to consider the Devialet phono stage to be sub standard (to the standard I am used to) because I have proved with two external stages fed into line that the sound can be hiss free, more detailed and more revealing in terms of fine detail and subtle nuances that the Devialet phono could not do or reveal. Bit of a shame really but I’ll live with it as what I have now hits the spot. As an aside, as no doubt there are doubters of my take on all this, my speakers are 91dB efficient and by design are an easy load. Those of you that consider the Devialet phono stage is good are probably right, but it’s a balanced subjective thing. Your good might well fall short of what I regard as good, which seems to be what is being indicated here.
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#16
It has been speculated in this thread that there may be a difference in the quality / hiss level of the phono stage in various Devialet amps.

OK, with respect to preferences between different external phono stages, this is in part subjective and may be system dependant, all of which is fair enough.

However, the hiss level is easily measurable with a smart phone dB app or similar.  It looks like it might be a dull and wet weekend here in the UK, so something to try if you have some time?  I think it might be interesting if we could establish that there are significant / measurable differences between the phono stages in different amps.

This is a check I performed with an iPhone app tried a while back:

Turn the amp on, select phono, at -40dB, all is quiet.  Up the volume to 0dB and you can hear the hiss very clearly.  Using an iPhone app and the phone roughly in the listening position, it recorded about 36dB as background silence (silence is quite noisy in terms of dB's)  Upping the volume until the app reached 50dB, I checked the Dev and it was on about +2dB
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#17
(19-Jan-2018, 16:13)Confused Wrote: It has been speculated in this thread that there may be a difference in the quality / hiss level of the phono stage in various Devialet amps.

OK, with respect to preferences between different external phono stages, this is in part subjective and may be system dependant, all of which is fair enough.

However, the hiss level is easily measurable with a smart phone dB app or similar.  It looks like it might be a dull and wet weekend here in the UK, so something to try if you have some time?  I think it might be interesting if we could establish that there are significant / measurable differences between the phono stages in different amps.

This is a check I performed with an iPhone app tried a while back:

Turn the amp on, select phono, at -40dB, all is quiet.  Up the volume to 0dB and you can hear the hiss very clearly.  Using an iPhone app and the phone roughly in the listening position, it recorded about 36dB as background silence (silence is quite noisy in terms of dB's)  Upping the volume until the app reached 50dB, I checked the Dev and it was on about +2dB

Hi @Confused. Just for clarity, what App are you using to conduct this check?


David
1. NUC6i5SYH running ROON ROCK > ROON/AIR > Ethernet > Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity> Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers,
or, as alternative, 
2. Wyred4Sound MS-2 Server, Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity, Theta Jade CD Transport, Pure 702ES Tuner, Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers, misc cables

                                       UK
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#18
(19-Jan-2018, 16:35)brit Wrote:
(19-Jan-2018, 16:13)Confused Wrote: It has been speculated in this thread that there may be a difference in the quality / hiss level of the phono stage in various Devialet amps.

OK, with respect to preferences between different external phono stages, this is in part subjective and may be system dependant, all of which is fair enough.

However, the hiss level is easily measurable with a smart phone dB app or similar.  It looks like it might be a dull and wet weekend here in the UK, so something to try if you have some time?  I think it might be interesting if we could establish that there are significant / measurable differences between the phono stages in different amps.

This is a check I performed with an iPhone app tried a while back:

Turn the amp on, select phono, at -40dB, all is quiet.  Up the volume to 0dB and you can hear the hiss very clearly.  Using an iPhone app and the phone roughly in the listening position, it recorded about 36dB as background silence (silence is quite noisy in terms of dB's)  Upping the volume until the app reached 50dB, I checked the Dev and it was on about +2dB

Hi @Confused. Just for clarity, what App are you using to conduct this check?


David

Decibel X - I have no idea how accurate it is, but I guess it would help if we use the same app for consistency.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#19
(19-Jan-2018, 16:51)Confused Wrote:
(19-Jan-2018, 16:35)brit Wrote:
(19-Jan-2018, 16:13)Confused Wrote: It has been speculated in this thread that there may be a difference in the quality / hiss level of the phono stage in various Devialet amps.

OK, with respect to preferences between different external phono stages, this is in part subjective and may be system dependant, all of which is fair enough.

However, the hiss level is easily measurable with a smart phone dB app or similar.  It looks like it might be a dull and wet weekend here in the UK, so something to try if you have some time?  I think it might be interesting if we could establish that there are significant / measurable differences between the phono stages in different amps.

This is a check I performed with an iPhone app tried a while back:

Turn the amp on, select phono, at -40dB, all is quiet.  Up the volume to 0dB and you can hear the hiss very clearly.  Using an iPhone app and the phone roughly in the listening position, it recorded about 36dB as background silence (silence is quite noisy in terms of dB's)  Upping the volume until the app reached 50dB, I checked the Dev and it was on about +2dB

Hi @Confused. Just for clarity, what App are you using to conduct this check?


David

Decibel X - I have no idea how accurate it is, but I guess it would help if we use the same app for consistency.

Exactly  Smile.
1. NUC6i5SYH running ROON ROCK > ROON/AIR > Ethernet > Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity> Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers,
or, as alternative, 
2. Wyred4Sound MS-2 Server, Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity, Theta Jade CD Transport, Pure 702ES Tuner, Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers, misc cables

                                       UK
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#20
OK, using decibel X. At -40dB gain I register 35db; at +2.0db gain I register 50db. At my normal listening level of circa -26db I register 37db.

These to me, with my level of hearing, are totally acceptable figures.

David
1. NUC6i5SYH running ROON ROCK > ROON/AIR > Ethernet > Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity> Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers,
or, as alternative, 
2. Wyred4Sound MS-2 Server, Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity, Theta Jade CD Transport, Pure 702ES Tuner, Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers, misc cables

                                       UK
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