Phantoms and home cinema

[AdamInHiltonHead]

.......Why do you need a VPN? 


.................Why do you need the Apple Airport Extreme? It would be an expensive solution just for extending the wireless range.

Unfortunately I cannot see the beginning and end of your description.

Maybe a separate forum thread for network should be created.

Thanks Karebe for the info.   I dont know if I need a VIRTUAL PRIVATE NETWORK (VPN).   Several on this forum recommended it to minimize stability issues.    The Apple Airport Extreme was to allow creation of the VPN, not to extend wireless range as my phantom network is all LAN wired.

Yes, a separate forum thread for network is needed.    Should be split to separate those trying a wireless network approach, and those going to a wired network approach.

Hello

Regarding the Apple Airport Extreme or the Apple Airport Express (which was my choice) - please note:

a) The purpose is not to extend the Wi-Fi Range. 
b) VPN as mentioned in the previous post does not apply either.  VPN is a better reference to Virtual Private Network for purposes of securing the physical access via LAN or WAN to the source data and the device requesting it and vice versa.

The purpose of the Apple Router is the following:

a) Many of us have many devices within our homes that are IP-based - cameras, computers, thermostats, TVs - etc. etc.  Our routers either through Manual IP Assignment, MAC Address assignments or DHCP - apply a reservation (parking spot on out networks) so the information that we pull in from the WWW can be routed to the appropriate device.  Adding the Apple Router and enabling NAT and DHCP - carves out a VIP Section for our Devialet Network that doesn't permit the other devices such as phones, computers or TVs - interfere with the accuracy, speed or consistency of the lossless music sources being sent to our music network.  The Apple Router is placed in our setup to simplify the quality and ease of delivering higher bandwidth music source files to our Phantoms - the private network permits the Dialogue to not compete with another room requesting a show on Netflix, or any other IP-based device in our homes to interrupt the smoothest possible link between lossless source file ---> Dialogue ----> Phantoms.  We virtually eliminate the chance of drop outs due to some other Web-based device in our home downloading, uploading, logging in or even freezing up our music experience.  Considering what we spent on our Phantoms - the $100 for an Airpot Router Express was small potatoes.  Plus the mini Toslink Port on the Airport Express (think Airplay) really opens up some other routing options for us.

** And I will NOT post any more network issues here - I'm really sorry - but honesty I didn't enjoy my Phantom Experience until I understood these things. We do NOT need the Airport to add Wi-Fi Range. We must also remember that Devialet uses the word 'Robust' - I understand this now. Up until my Phantoms - everything in my World was LAN or WiFi - right? Well the Dialogue and Phantoms say they use WiFi and PLC in a 'complementary' way. I didn't get this for my first month. They are saying that the best sound experience for our Phantoms - esp streaming HiFi via Tidal like I do - is to use WiFi and PLC (which mean a LAN Connection via the AC Wiring) at the same time. YES - they are telling us that our Dialogue and Phantoms simultaneously use data over wire and WiFi at the same time. Thus - I would like to point out something that I haven't read anywhere from Devialet or in the brief visits to our Chat Portal. The best situation is to have our Dialogue and our Phantoms literally on the same circuit for the AC Power. In other words if we flip that switch in the breaker - we would cut power to all three. Yes they will work if (1) Phantom or the Dialogue is on another circuit in our homes - but it simply isn't as clean. I want the highest quality sound that I can have for my Phantoms. Otherwise I would have been happy streaming 300k via Pandora One through some other devices. But I wanted the highest quality streaming experience possible. Now I finally realize for my Phantoms it means this:

Setup a mini network with an Airport Router in which no other devices use its Wifi (independent SSID and Security KEY) - no other devices access it via LAN (Ethernet) - then take advantage of the fact the Phantoms have the PLC Technology built-in (data via AC Wires) so we add a PLC Adapter to the Dialogue and a 2nd PLC Adapter connected to the primary Router (or associated Switch) in the home. If the Airport would be your only router - you obviously simplify this. Finally - I made sure that I listened to Devialet - the Airpot Router, Dialogue and Phantoms are all in the same room. They are on a small mini network that I created with my Airport Express. I also chose AC outlets in my bedroom (that all live on the same circuit within the electrical box in my home). Now that I've done this - I make sure that I login to that private Airpot Network (SSID) and Spark has been instant - and the quality and connectivity - especially in remastered lossless files has been extraordinary. If you don't care - you've only wasted five minutes to read this. If you do care - this was my road map to follow Devialet's suggestions to achieve the highest quality sound and experience.

[ondastar]

AIHH... The journey to robust Home Cinema application scenarios greater than mono is all about "networking". Consider 5:1 to 7:2 to 11:2 etc. So, your diagnostic path wonderfully described to achieve a stable environment for your app scenario is most instructive for anyone struggling to get "simple" reliable Dialog/Phantom operation free of "singing resets".

There are no existence proofs for 5:1 and up from Devialet owners that I have found, and no Devialet application whitepapers as well.

My network does not need the Airports, but that is an artifact of my network architecture and it's engineering. But as you point out VPN engineering isn't for everyone, nor should it be...

[rjalder]

Thank you adaminhiltonhead for your post of 14-Nov-2015, 23:10.


Clarifying the concepts behind networking setups is key with this technology for both home cinema and sound systems. 

Seems useful to read NETWORKING threads first to avoid setup problems.

[rjalder]

Bownose, you say above "The airport express is plugged into a phantom rather than the dialog and there is just enough lag to make it lip sync nicely." Seems like you are saying you have a solution for the lip sync issue, but I don't follow what gets connected to what. Can you please clarify?

Apple airport express has ethernet, usb and analog/optical audio line out. Apple tv4 has hdmi, usb-c and ethernet. Phantom has optical in and ethernet. Tv has optical out for sound and hdmi in for sound/video. So what is connected to what to avoid the lip sync?

? apple tv hdmi to tv hdmi / tv out usb to airport express? / airport express optical out to phantom optical in?

I have a 2 phantom L and R stereo setup for the TV, both are ethernet connected. What ever your connection scheme is,if there is only one optical out going to one phantom, how to you pick up the other phantom?

And has this still proven to overcome the lip sync problem? Thanks.

[ondastar]

This may or may not be helpful "networking" configuration information for your specific application case.

For illustrative purposes here is my app specific current arrangement. The objective is to take any of my  HDMI AV sources ( SAT DVR, Amazon Fire TV, Apple TV, Kaleidescape MPlayer, OPPO BDP 105D)  via my Marantz AVP 8801 HDMI outputs (Mon 1,2, Zone 4) to an Octava HDMI/Optical switch and de-embed the audio signals to my DSpeaker optical in and after room correction (or not)  connect to the Dialog optical in for L/R stereo output to 3 Silver Phantoms (L/R plus mix) with audio and video synchronization.

Also, for pure audio the Optical switch has dedicated optical audio inputs from the Apple TV, OPPO BDP 105D, and my Bluesound node 2 for audio only network streamed sources like ROON and Tidal and my NAS plus local music library.

AV synchronization is straightforward with the Marantz from 0-200ms which is neat if you want to add the Phantoms to your existing 5.1 7.1 etc setup, and each HDMI input has some restrictions (copyrights plus tech disabling) in terms of audio passthrough ( 2 channel and dolby digital allowed ) newer formats not supported.

There are varying amounts of "fiddling" with each source setup menu's to get it right.

So, at least in my app specific case I can get synced AV from multiple sources rendered accurately via the optical in on the Dialog with my 3 Phantoms as a pretty good pseudo 2.1 "surround" platform, and add them into my existing 7.2 setup with some beneficial acoustic impact.

I am still looking for the "all singing and dancing" AV processor whilst I wait for the Devialet Home Cinema upgrade... in whatever form it takes.

[rjalder]

How to get around Phantom lipsync problem with TV?

Are there any AV receivers that handles lipsync issues,  both positive and negative?

I asked a tech about the ANTHEM MRX510 AV receiver and was told it only does negative agjust, not positive.

I understand from 
http://www.cnet.com/news/lip-sync-error-...solutions/
that the usual problem is audio first, video second so I assume then that is negative adjust.   And what is needed is positive adjust.

But even if a receiver could do that, the out is optical to the DIALOG and its the DIALOG that is creating the lag, right? So that is not a fix?

I have my Phantoms getting sound via wired ethernet connections to each Phantom.....so a audio adjustment in a receiver before the DIALOG which feeds the Phantoms I suppose wont help?

And if the audio delay is caused by signal processing right in the PHANTOM itself ????   what can fix that?

[hjfisch]

Hello ,
I’ve a VU+ Solo 4k with VTI Image.
This one can do it in both directions.
So I think all VU+ Receiver can do it.

mfg , hjf

[rjalder]

are you using both their television,
http://vutvs.com/index.php

and the hard drive receiver?
http://vuplus.com/sub/sub0113.php

http://linux-tv.com/receiver-manufacturer/vu/
I already have a new television, but I am in the market for a receiver that will match the phantoms and fix the lipsync issue.
Can the lipsync issue be fixed with only the SOLO 4k receiver? What is your connection layout like, optical out from TV to receiver input, then to DIALOG, or what? Why do you think lipsync is fixed, is it that in this configuration, the receiver delay the sound in the positive direction enough to overcome all the phantom equipment, all of which are downstream from the receiver?

http://linux-tv.com/receiver/vu-solo-4k/ shows a optical audio out, is that what you connect with to DIALOG?

http://vuplus.com/sub/main.php

http://vuplus.com/sub/sub0113.php

could not see that this product is available in North America.

[hjfisch]

Lipsynch is fixed by -25ms.
I use Toslink output from Solo 4k.
I think other Linux Receiver could do the same with alternative firmware like openatv.

mfg , hjf

[JCarra]

I own a few Kodi box's and they all offer +/- offsets. I'm able to stream content through these boxes with perfect sync, they also offer optical out. None of my box's have HDMI input (only out) but I've started my research. Theoretically you could stream your device (TV,DVD) through a Kodi box which supports HDMI input and use the Kodi interface to resolve Lipsync.

An example of one with HDMI input is the Huawei MediaQ M310.

I'm new to the advanced audio space so i'll leave conversations regarding potential degradation to brighter minds, however this may serve as an inexpensive option for those who don't mind interfacing with Kodi. There are many other brands that offer similar spec's.

My test setup was as follows:

Phantoms 2
Dialog Yes
Remote Yes
Screen Zazz Projector
Connection to Phantoms - Bluetooth via S9 Kodi box (Stereo)
HDMI out from S9 Kodi Box to projector.
Audio delay tweaked via settings on S9 Kodi Box.


To be clear - My test proved that I could stream from the Kodi box to correct Lipsync. I can stream and watch my content via the microSD card with perfect Sync. My current setup doesn't support HDMI input (TV,DVD etc), however other boxes have this feature and I believe that it might serve the purpose that many are looking for.