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ROON
I was participating in an interesting discussion about Roon on the Devialet site. I know people are passionate about Roon, even if I'm not. The only music supplier it is fully integrated with is Tidal and as I use another service (with all the metadata I need) and don't have multi-platform music at home, it does not suit me.

I was having a look at it from a business perspective, noting that in the UK there are three leading hi-end digital brands and none of them have Roon (Naim, Linn and Chord). Why?

Apparently Naim are in the process, but I doubt they are averse. Their original streaming platform was third party software anyway (from DigiFi in London).

Chord only have Roon in a small bolt-on device, but not in their main streamer product line (only upnp/DNLA, which Roon say is rubbish and the reason for developing RAAT).

Linn/Roon has been a 2-year fiasco, because Linn wanted Roon (who originally agreed) to adopt their Songcast protocol, and now Roon insist on Linn implementing RAAT. The top people from Linn and Roon have explained on page 4 here:
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.p...pid=410571

Of perhaps more significance, Roon insist on a standardised licensing and certification agreements for their software. There is no license cost, but Linn made the valid point that it holds them to ransom for certification and changes to the agreement. Without going into the legal issues, they have a point. They also say, correctly, that whilst these issues may not be a major problem for other Roon partners for whom streaming devices are only part of their range, for Linn streaming is core, as is the case for Devialet.

Also bear in mind that Roon is own by a New York registered LLC. The last thing Linn, or anyone, would want is to get into an IP dispute in New York.
Roon also imply that they don't have much spare cash (if any) and are reliant on manufacturing partners for their marketing.

So basically Roon want their partners to adopt the Roon non-standard RAAT platform and all Roon functionality in its entirety, no tweaks, nothing left out, agree to a licensing agreement that effectively gives Roon a veto, pay for the technical development, and then Roon have a free marketing platform. Roon may have some nice software, but for a 2-year-old start-up with little cash (no external investors) that's a pretty aggressive approach.

The manufacturers who have implemented Roon seem to have done so in separate streamer devices. Bryston have simply put a Raspberry Pi in a nice case and slapped a $1,300 price tag on it. Some of the Roon "partners" don't yet actually have any products supporting Roon, Meitner and Audionet for example (I only looked at a few).

Implementing Roon is way more demanding than the various upnp streaming services. For Linn the multi-platform service was the main issue, because it was incompatible with Linn's Songplay protocol. As Devialet Expert and Linn DS have many similarities, I suspect Devialet would run into exactly the same technical and licensing issues with Roon as did Linn.

Devialet's intentions are to develop a major software offering. Committing a product line to a small start-up software company with very limited funds just makes no sense to me.

Expert is Devialet's sole high-end component audio product line, an integrated product from source to speaker output. Many people are asking that product line, representing a significant investment, to have a commercial tie-in with Roon. That would be fine if Roon is a long-term success, but there is no guarantee. For example, what if Roon decided to partner with a major Asian manufacturer like Onkyo or TEAC, which would establish Roon globally, but for a 50% share in the business. Roon have no such major partners yet. Then the other partners are at the whim of that shareholder, who would first thing change the licensing. That would seem to be why I cannot see that any established brand has committed to implement Roon throughout its product range, Linn being the perfect example. This is my best guess at Devialet's thinking and why I think Roon implementation in Expert is unlikely, but you never know.
250 Pro CI; Innuos Zen Mk3; Claro dual turntable (Expert Stylus Denon + OL Aladdin Mk2); RCM Sensor2; Wilson Sabrina; OePhi speaker cables; Puritan PM156 conditioner and Ultimate cables.
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p.s. A third party manufacturer/investor would of course charge other users for the (currently free) RAAT license. Such an investment would be based on it resulting in selling more hardware, as much as Roon subscriptions. The only way to limit existing Roon licensees selling on the back of Roon-status is to charge them for the license, increasing their costs or making them dump Roon.

Whatever, happens, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
250 Pro CI; Innuos Zen Mk3; Claro dual turntable (Expert Stylus Denon + OL Aladdin Mk2); RCM Sensor2; Wilson Sabrina; OePhi speaker cables; Puritan PM156 conditioner and Ultimate cables.
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(18-Apr-2017, 10:33)ssfas Wrote: p.s. A third party manufacturer/investor would of course charge other users for the (currently free) RAAT license. Such an investment would be based on it resulting in selling more hardware, as much as Roon subscriptions. The only way to limit existing Roon licensees selling on the back of Roon-status is to charge them for the license, increasing their costs or making them dump Roon.

Whatever, happens, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Ssfas (aka Stevensegal), for someone that used the term 'forum fanatics' to describe Devialetchat members, and who apparently has no interest in Roon, you seem to be devoting a huge amount of effort on the forums to try and justify why Devialet shouldn't adopt Roon's RAAT.

Despite not using Roon, you appear to be familiar with their business dealings, and an ability to see into their future. You seem equally familiar with the Roon certification process, and Devialet's business.

I guess there's more to this than meets the eye Big Grin

So I guess now Devialet has huge investment, we're all about to get big bills for Spark and firmware updates (assuming they actually ever release another one).

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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(18-Apr-2017, 11:06)Hifi_swlon Wrote:
(18-Apr-2017, 10:33)ssfas Wrote: p.s. A third party manufacturer/investor would of course charge other users for the (currently free) RAAT license. Such an investment would be based on it resulting in selling more hardware, as much as Roon subscriptions. The only way to limit existing Roon licensees selling on the back of Roon-status is to charge them for the license, increasing their costs or making them dump Roon.

Whatever, happens, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Ssfas (aka Stevensegal), for someone that used the term 'forum fanatics' to describe Devialetchat members, and who apparently has no interest in Roon, you seem to be devoting a huge amount of effort on the forums to try and justify why Devialet shouldn't adopt Roon's RAAT.

Despite not using Roon, you appear to be familiar with their business dealings, and an ability to see into their future. You seem equally familiar with the Roon certification process, and Devialet's business.

I guess there's more to this than meets the eye Big Grin

So I guess now Devialet has huge investment, we're all about to get big bills for Spark and firmware updates (assuming they actually ever release another one).

Well perhaps Devialet are participating after all Confused ?
1. NUC6i5SYH running ROON ROCK > ROON/AIR > Ethernet > Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity> Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers,
or, as alternative, 
2. Wyred4Sound MS-2 Server, Devialet 1000pro Core Infinity, Theta Jade CD Transport, Pure 702ES Tuner, Wilson-Benesch ACT Speakers, misc cables

                                       UK
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This is my fifth post to this forum since joining a couple of months ago, so I'd better stop else I'd be accused of being a forum fanatic !!!

I became interested in Roon more after reading all the hullabaloo about those wanting it in Devialet OS. I have repeatedly said I don't care if it is or it isn't in Expert OS, as I won't be subscribing. I have no vested interest. I have never said Devialet shouldn't implement Roon, I am curious why they should decide not to, as it seems more likely to be the case. Besides links you have posted to discussions where that seems to be accepted, Roon makes lots of advance partnership announcements, but is silent on Devialet.

In Devialet's silence, I was curious what Roon is about at a business and why, if it is allegedly so easy to implement, it is not more widespread.

So I googled "Linn + Roon" and found the link I posted, a long explanation by Danny Dulai, the main guy at Roon, and someone from Linn, explaining why after 2 years nothing has happened. They explain it is as much due to licensing issues as technology issues.

I also googled "Danny Dulai" and he has said in the press he is resistant to outside investors.

I also searched this forum and the information from Roon on the Linn site does not appear to have been mentioned here previously.

So Roon sparked (no pun intended) my curiosity and besides a series of Easter walks and outings I've been obliged to watch quite a lot of boring IPL with my kids, so I had some time on my hands.

Incidentally Steve, we have more in common than you think! Both Londoners, 250 Pro users, I had Fact.8 and now have Harbeth. So we both have excellent taste, even if we differ on Roon.

I also read a few interesting articles about Devialet in the FT, their ambitions extend to automatic and AV. If they can add decent sound to flat-screen TVs, they have my vote. They imply that Phantom and Expert are almost guinea pig products for their patented technology and they have big plans for SAM (which I have switched off) in other areas. There is sense in this as domestic audio is a very small market indeed compared to automotive and AV.
250 Pro CI; Innuos Zen Mk3; Claro dual turntable (Expert Stylus Denon + OL Aladdin Mk2); RCM Sensor2; Wilson Sabrina; OePhi speaker cables; Puritan PM156 conditioner and Ultimate cables.
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(18-Apr-2017, 11:54)ssfas Wrote: Incidentally Steve, we have more in common than you think! Both Londoners, 250 Pro users, I had Fact.8 and now have Harbeth. So we both have excellent taste, even if we differ on Roon.

Heart "Love is in the AIR" Heart

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.....)
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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(18-Apr-2017, 11:58)Confused Wrote:
(18-Apr-2017, 11:54)ssfas Wrote: Incidentally Steve, we have more in common than you think! Both Londoners, 250 Pro users, I had Fact.8 and now have Harbeth. So we both have excellent taste, even if we differ on Roon.

Heart "Love is in the AIR" Heart

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.....)

Nor could I !! Didn't speculate we probably got our units from the same dealer, that would be OTT.

(Post 6 - must control this habit ...) 

Curiously, my Aries streamer decided to update to a beta version last night that includes a non-Meridian MQA file decoder. MQA has barely launched and its grand master plan to take over audio is being eroded. Software is a fairly fickle industry and I would much rather Devialet keep everything in-house and under their control from a purely commercial perspective. Masters of their own destiny and all that sort of thing.
250 Pro CI; Innuos Zen Mk3; Claro dual turntable (Expert Stylus Denon + OL Aladdin Mk2); RCM Sensor2; Wilson Sabrina; OePhi speaker cables; Puritan PM156 conditioner and Ultimate cables.
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Roon is like MQA, iTunes, Tidal etc all about owning the chain with a lot of consumers and make money out of subscriptions...

There are a view companies just focusing on a high end player with the best quality possible and nothing else.
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This may be of interest. Streaming is on the march.

http://www.riaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2...-Notes.pdf

Source: https://www.riaa.com/reports/news-notes-...tatistics/
250 Pro CI; Innuos Zen Mk3; Claro dual turntable (Expert Stylus Denon + OL Aladdin Mk2); RCM Sensor2; Wilson Sabrina; OePhi speaker cables; Puritan PM156 conditioner and Ultimate cables.
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It strikes me that Devialet can (will) take one of two business models...

1) totally proprietary approach. That is, they will only directly support their own software solutions (SPARK, AIR, ...) although certainly other streaming solutions may ride on their technology (i.e. Roon will still work - either via AIR or the use of 3rd party hardware such as the uRendu or SMS-200).

2) utilize a much more robust OS to integrate other 3rd party streaming solutions such as RAAT and potentially others (i.e. in a manner, perhaps, as has Sonore or SoTM).

There are business cases for either and risks with both. But streaming will obviously be supported either way and neither will dictate nor necessarily constrain the streaming solution an Expert Pro owner will take. My guess is that Devialet will take the first approach. Either way, I'll continue to use Roon with my Pro.
Devialet 440 Pro (two 220s)- Oracle CD transport - Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S turntable - Von Schweikert VR-35 speakers - JPS SC3 SCs - PI Audio power conditioning -
Triode Wire Labs ICs and PCs - Roon on NUC 8i7beh running ROCK
Durham, NC USA
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