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Phantom white vs silver + general impressions
#31
Thanks a lot stonedragon!
Living room: Kii Three/BXT with Control.
Den: Tannoy Precision 8 iDP with TS112 iDP subwoofer.
In the cupboard, waiting for a sibling: 1st gen. Phantom Silver running DOS1
My Phantom Voyage
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#32
(09-Jul-2015, 16:20)f1eng Wrote:
(08-Jul-2015, 00:33)Dvlt PhD Wrote:
(07-Jul-2015, 18:13)f1eng Wrote: There is actually no difference except the peak power, so as long as the max volume is less than 70, which is I believe full power for full modulation, there is no way that they can sound any different to a silver up to a volume of 64, although the extra price may well have a marked placebo effect!

 If this is accurate, it's great news. Because that way, one could get a Silver, just for future-proof, without having to worry about volume differences.

Do you mean I could do a blind test with standard and silver, with specific volumes between 0 and 64, and it would be like using a white silver, because it would show that using the same volume level in both, would give the same dB level?


You mentioned in another thread that you haven't listened to Standard Phantom. How can you be so sure? Have somebody confirmed this for you?

Thanks.


(07-Jul-2015, 20:59)Novak Wrote: I recently read the same, Devialet did a demo with one channel in white and one in silver, stating there's no audible difference unless you are maxing out the volume. Anyway, haven't heard either of them, but will be receiving a white one very soon. I'm not one to play loud, so hopefully it will be just fine. Looking forward to getting started.

 Did you keep a link, please?


Thanks.



Dvlt PhD

Same tweeter, same mid unit same sized (but higher power handling) bass units, same technology amplifier. By what mechanism could they possibly sound any different whilst operating below the limit of the amplifiers?
The difference between a silver Phantom and a white is unlikely to be greater than the general sample variation in production.

And anyway that is what Devialet said originally the only difference in spec is the maximum possible SPL.

I would imagine that if max power at full modulation is at volume setting 70, and if the volume level is calibrated in dBs then the silver Phantom at 64 will be the same loudness as a white at 70. If using an unmatched pair perhaps Spark/Dialog compensates for this difference if you define them as a stereo pair during the setup procedure, but I don't know for sure.

@f1eng Bold: I think that's bad news for people who like to listen to music at low volumes sometimes... Does this mean that the Silver will not have the volume level that the Standard Phantom has at volume level 0-6? Meaning that at volume level 1 on the Silver, it will be like volume level 7 on the Standard Phantom?
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#33
(09-Jul-2015, 15:17)DSJ Wrote: Current Audio Mag with Phantom Review and Phantoms on the cover (can't remember the mag name) has one of the Devialet team stating that the 3000 watt Silver Phantom does indeed have an upgraded woofer and internals to deal with the extra thermal load and power produced by the Silver Version.

Hi-Choice interviewed P.E. Calmet, CTO and Chairman


Quote:How have you achieved an extra 2,250W over the standard model?

It was a another big challenge, especially when factoring in the speakers’ thermal management. We use higher temperature grade woofer magnets, more efficient thermal material to extract heat to the heatsink and specific signal processing as well as SAM. The two look similar, but the component dimensioning changes significantly to produce 99dB or 105dB




...more differences than expected...but mainly temperature issues. Though "specific signal processing" would suggest not to mix white and silver as a a unit.
@Jean-Marie: this time took Devialet the other way.
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#34
Some earlier comments suggested that the white and silver sound the same. The above information would suggest that on the margins at least, there will be some subtle differences. It also occurs to me that in normal use the amplifiers in the silver will be operating well within their design margins, gently cruising, or lots of "headroom" in audiophile speak. Conversely, the amplifiers in the white will inevitably be working much harder, for the same required volume. There are plenty of cases of amplifiers sounding harsher when pushed, and indeed some examples of amplifiers sounding a little dead at very low volumes when not pushed hard enough. How much difference will this make between Phanoms? To be honest I have no idea. Instinctively though, I would have thought that this will indeed make a difference, although of what absolute magnitude I'm not sure. The best way to judge would be to have a listen.
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#35
(10-Jul-2015, 22:43)Dvlt PhD Wrote:
(09-Jul-2015, 16:20)f1eng Wrote:
(08-Jul-2015, 00:33)Dvlt PhD Wrote:
(07-Jul-2015, 18:13)f1eng Wrote: There is actually no difference except the peak power, so as long as the max volume is less than 70, which is I believe full power for full modulation, there is no way that they can sound any different to a silver up to a volume of 64, although the extra price may well have a marked placebo effect!

 If this is accurate, it's great news. Because that way, one could get a Silver, just for future-proof, without having to worry about volume differences.

Do you mean I could do a blind test with standard and silver, with specific volumes between 0 and 64, and it would be like using a white silver, because it would show that using the same volume level in both, would give the same dB level?


You mentioned in another thread that you haven't listened to Standard Phantom. How can you be so sure? Have somebody confirmed this for you?

Thanks.


(07-Jul-2015, 20:59)Novak Wrote: I recently read the same, Devialet did a demo with one channel in white and one in silver, stating there's no audible difference unless you are maxing out the volume. Anyway, haven't heard either of them, but will be receiving a white one very soon. I'm not one to play loud, so hopefully it will be just fine. Looking forward to getting started.

 Did you keep a link, please?


Thanks.



Dvlt PhD

Same tweeter, same mid unit same sized (but higher power handling) bass units, same technology amplifier. By what mechanism could they possibly sound any different whilst operating below the limit of the amplifiers?
The difference between a silver Phantom and a white is unlikely to be greater than the general sample variation in production.

And anyway that is what Devialet said originally the only difference in spec is the maximum possible SPL.

I would imagine that if max power at full modulation is at volume setting 70, and if the volume level is calibrated in dBs then the silver Phantom at 64 will be the same loudness as a white at 70. If using an unmatched pair perhaps Spark/Dialog compensates for this difference if you define them as a stereo pair during the setup procedure, but I don't know for sure.

@f1eng Bold: I think that's bad news for people who like to listen to music at low volumes sometimes... Does this mean that the Silver will not have the volume level that the Standard Phantom has at volume level 0-6? Meaning that at volume level 1 on the Silver, it will be like volume level 7 on the Standard Phantom?
Good point, it probably is not dB then.
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#36
(11-Jul-2015, 09:04)Confused Wrote: Some earlier comments suggested that the white and silver sound the same.  The above information would suggest that on the margins at least, there will be some subtle differences.  It also occurs to me that in normal use the amplifiers in the silver will be operating well within their design margins, gently cruising, or lots of "headroom" in audiophile speak.  Conversely, the amplifiers in the white will inevitably be working much harder, for the same required volume.  There are plenty of cases of amplifiers sounding harsher when pushed, and indeed some examples of amplifiers sounding a little dead at very low volumes when not pushed hard enough.  How much difference will this make between Phanoms?  To be honest I have no idea.  Instinctively though, I would have thought that this will indeed make a difference, although of what absolute magnitude I'm not sure.  The best way to judge would be to have a listen.

Don't you think that for frequencies above that where the DSP is needing to compensate for the natural roll off they both will be cruising? 750 watts into a normal speaker is already quite a lot and I would guess that none of the extra power is ever needed into the coaxial unit and only into the lower frequencies for the 2 bass units require the power to begin to be boosted by SAM.
I don't know the crossover frequency to the bass units, or the frequency at which Sam needs to kick in though...
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#37
The white Phantom arrived yesterday. First impressions are good.

However, I'm not so keen on the Spark app at all, it's tricky to use and took a while to get set up.

I'm currently using the temp bluetooth dongle they supplied, until (so I'm told) the new firmware is released at the end of the month. This will activate the (now integrated) bluetooth capability. This is much better, so I can use iTunes and Spotify as normal.

How does it sound? It's certainly thunderous! At a decent volume (Around 45-50 I'd say), it sounds well balanced and certainly very impressive. When playing out to the garden, listening from a distance it sounds absolutely superb, I was listening to Grey Reverend and it almost realistic. However, when listening at a low-ish volume, and close up, it doesn't have the magic of a normal 2 channel system, it sounds quite dark, needs a bit more air and presence. Saying that, as a convenient second system to play in almost any position or location, it's a winner. I can imagine two would be fantastic, but that would work with our layout.

I quickly tried it against my main (and fairly modest) system – Harbeth P3ESR, Chord Hugo and Jadis valve integrated. The Phantom doesn't compare in terms of producing lush, natural music with detail, air, soundstage, but it certainly rocks as a great all rounder, convenient, and versatile sound system. Great product, and nicely made too.
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#38
@Novak were you comparing mono to stereo or one Harbeth speaker in mono to your one Phantom?
SYSTEM 1:Grimm MU-1 running Roon Server & Ready//Grimm TPM//GRIMM LS1be
SYSTEM 2: Antipodes DX Roon Server// MiniDSP// Grimm TPM// Dutch & Dutch 8C

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#39
I tried both mono and stereo Harbeths. Of course, one Harbeth doesn't have some much of an edge but they still have a better frequency balance in my room. Saying that, one or even two Harbeths wouldn't achieve the scale into the garden like the Phantom would!
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#40
(11-Jul-2015, 13:53)f1eng Wrote:
(11-Jul-2015, 09:04)Confused Wrote: Some earlier comments suggested that the white and silver sound the same.  The above information would suggest that on the margins at least, there will be some subtle differences.  It also occurs to me that in normal use the amplifiers in the silver will be operating well within their design margins, gently cruising, or lots of "headroom" in audiophile speak.  Conversely, the amplifiers in the white will inevitably be working much harder, for the same required volume.  There are plenty of cases of amplifiers sounding harsher when pushed, and indeed some examples of amplifiers sounding a little dead at very low volumes when not pushed hard enough.  How much difference will this make between Phanoms?  To be honest I have no idea.  Instinctively though, I would have thought that this will indeed make a difference, although of what absolute magnitude I'm not sure.  The best way to judge would be to have a listen.

Don't you think that for frequencies above that where the DSP is needing to compensate for the natural roll off they both will be cruising? 750 watts into a normal speaker is already quite a lot and I would guess that none of the extra power is ever needed into the coaxial unit and only into the lower frequencies for the 2 bass units require the power to begin to be boosted by SAM.
I don't know the crossover frequency to the bass units, or the frequency at which Sam needs to kick in though...
750 watts into a normal speaker is indeed a lot!  I used to have a 1kw amplifier (for professional use, not hifi) and this thing had two fans at the front and two at the back for air cooling.  However, I am a little unsure what the "watt" ratings actually mean.  Is a silver Phantom really 3.75 times more powerful than a D800?  It would be interesting to know the "real" specification of the Phantom amps, but I guess the HBI bass system make such comparisons a little meaningless outside of use in the actual Phantom?  Although I think it is a fair assumption that the Silver Phantom amps are nowhere near 3000w RMS into 8 ohms!
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