Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Vibration Control
(01-Mar-2016, 21:14)Confused Wrote:
(01-Mar-2016, 16:18)yabaVR Wrote: I don't want to offend and I don't know the Anzus puks, but if you, TDA, can't hear a difference there is something quiet wrong with your system and/or room acoustics. The more flaws there are in your room/system the less you notice any improvement of some puks underneath e.g. your Devs. If nothing is tuned with the room and/or system you might have a rather dull performing audio system compared to a fully tuned room/system.

Maybe this is correct.  However, there is an alternative hypothesis.  Maybe the performance of the electronics in TDA's system are not in any significant way influenced by the low level vibrations that products like puks claim to reduce.  In this scenario, the puks would not make any real audible difference irrespective of how it is set up, no product would.

So why would my system be so different in this regard?

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK
(01-Mar-2016, 21:21)GuillaumeB Wrote:
(01-Mar-2016, 21:14)Confused Wrote:
(01-Mar-2016, 16:18)yabaVR Wrote: I don't want to offend and I don't know the Anzus puks, but if you, TDA, can't hear a difference there is something quiet wrong with your system and/or room acoustics. The more flaws there are in your room/system the less you notice any improvement of some puks underneath e.g. your Devs. If nothing is tuned with the room and/or system you might have a rather dull performing audio system compared to a fully tuned room/system.

Maybe this is correct.  However, there is an alternative hypothesis.  Maybe the performance of the electronics in TDA's system are not in any significant way influenced by the low level vibrations that products like puks claim to reduce.  In this scenario, the puks would not make any real audible difference irrespective of how it is set up, no product would.

So why would my system be so different in this regard?

Guillaume
Ah, well, I did start by saying maybe this is correct.  Shy 

To be honest, I am very cynical about this stuff, I just cannot understand how it works.  However, I have never tried it, so maybe I should before posting anything more that is negative. I do know that this hifi game can be full of surprises.  One slight caveat, I have tried isolation techniques with my turntable, with good results.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
Turntable has motor to drive the belt hence vibration is definitely there.
Before: Le200, KEF LS50, AQ Type4, NUC 5i5RYH/8GB/128GB M.2SSD, Roon, Win8.1/AIR2.1.3/RoonBridge, MM/AIR3/RoonBridge, QNAP TS-212P 5TB NAS, AQ NRG-X3

Now: KEF LS50W, NUC5i5RYH/8GB/128GB M.2SSD, Roon, QNAP TS-212P 5TB NAS,iFi iSilencer3.0+DC iPurifier+iPurifier2, Sonos ZP80+SPDIF iPurifier


Location: Cyberjaya, Malaysia
(01-Mar-2016, 22:33)hk6230 Wrote: Turntable has motor to drive the belt hence vibration is definitely there.

Exactly. There are no vibrations to dampen in an otherwise solid state system hence the absence of any audible improvement.  Looking at things from a scientific evidence perspective, the reason an earlier poster with high end equipment cannot hear a difference is simple: there is no difference to be heard and they are less susceptible to the placebo effect that these miracle pucks induce in certain listeners.
QNAP TS-453 > ROON on Intel NUC 5i5RYK running Win10 > AIR ethernet to D200 via router > Focal Sopra No 2
(02-Mar-2016, 04:59)El_Duderino Wrote:
(01-Mar-2016, 22:33)hk6230 Wrote: Turntable has motor to drive the belt hence vibration is definitely there.

Exactly. There are no vibrations to dampen in an otherwise solid state system hence the absence of any audible improvement.  Looking at things from a scientific evidence perspective, the reason an earlier poster with high end equipment cannot hear a difference is simple: there is no difference to be heard and they are less susceptible to the placebo effect that these miracle pucks induce in certain listeners.

Before installing the pucks on my speakers, i didn't even have them on spikes. So getting my speakers lifted off the ground has offcourse helped. But the extra cm that the pucks raise them I simply cannot hear in my room. Maybe I can hear a better bass, but that can just be because off the extra height now when raised. A much cheaper puck could do the job

On the devs + streamer I simply cannot see and hear what these pucks brings to the sound. It's the same for me. And the price on only this upgrade is 4600 euros... Maybe it's me but right now it feels like a gimmick, for brands to sell to earn extra money..
(02-Mar-2016, 07:02)TDA Wrote: On the devs + streamer I simply cannot see and hear what these pucks brings to the sound. It's the same for me. And the price on only this upgrade is 4600 euros... Maybe it's me but right now it feels like a gimmick, for brands to sell to earn extra money..

Sorry to say (for anyone who pays such sums of money for these things) but I'm 99.9999% sure that what you say is true TDA.

Most likely the difference you heard was just what you would have got from adding 'standard' spikes, or the change of speaker positions.

There are also some classic dealer type tricks with things like these - which I experienced myself when I did a demo with a Chord rep on some staggeringly expensive USB cable where I said I couldn't hear a difference.  Even though I clearly said I probably wouldn't anyway as it was an unfamiliar (headphone)setup and noisy surrounding, he still did the classics that I've read about (a) tell me what others hear so I know what to 'expect', (b) get someone else to come over and look amazed that I didn't hear to try and influence and then © offer to repeat, after which (d) with an even better (more expensive one) so that I definitely would hear.  It didjt work on me but I'm sure it can.  I'm aware from reading that there are many more things that can be done to influence things. Beware also of the dealer that just gives you more time so you can start adjusting everything else until you can hear the difference, because one day you probably will, but it most likely wont be the pucks doing it IMO.

I have definitely experienced bias, and am happy to admit it.  I also think I've made tweaks where I didn't think it was bias but now am unsure, and I'm sure I've made tweaks where there's been an actual improvement.  In all of these cases, I'll never actually know. I think when I was a bit younger I might have been a bit more defensive about it, but now I don't mind - I'd just like to better understand what tweaks are worthwhile (or real) and what aren't.

I'm sure many of these things are founded in some science somewhere along the way - spikes do serve a purpose - but when they become made of rare or precious metals or anything that sounds expensive, you know things are going awry. On my physics degree there were very advanced laser measuring setups for certain experiments.  Some of them were sitting on very carefully engineered and expensive 'floating platforms' to isolate them from subtle (but detectable) vibrations that could throw the measurement off.  So vibrations exists and can have an affect in some circumstances.  This was in something critical so it was an important step.  For music does it really matter? In any case I never heard diamond pucks mentioned as a solution.   If you were really worried about vibrations, you'd probably be better off commissioning a scientific engineering company to build something for you than pay large sums to companies for things like these - especially ones that only operate in audiophile circles….. At least the scientific engineers would identify whether there were a problem to fix, and then show you it had been addressed after they installed the device. And not by making you listen to it.

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

(01-Mar-2016, 21:14)Confused Wrote:
(01-Mar-2016, 16:18)yabaVR Wrote: I don't want to offend and I don't know the Anzus puks, but if you, TDA, can't hear a difference there is something quiet wrong with your system and/or room acoustics. The more flaws there are in your room/system the less you notice any improvement of some puks underneath e.g. your Devs. If nothing is tuned with the room and/or system you might have a rather dull performing audio system compared to a fully tuned room/system.

Maybe this is correct.  However, there is an alternative hypothesis.  Maybe the performance of the electronics in TDA's system are not in any significant way influenced by the low level vibrations that products like puks claim to reduce.  In this scenario, the puks would not make any real audible difference irrespective of how it is set up, no product would.

Maybe is the correct term  Wink .
I've been working with this things for nearly 30years and it's not the sales - it's fun for me to play with. It's the daily basis for a responsible dealer to work with these things NOT only to sell them but to get the best out of every component of a system and give the customer the opportunity to hear MUSIC and not only sound.

When was your last time you got a demonstration, let's say of a loudspeaker (or else), at a hifi-shop and you were NOT concentrating only on the SOUND after some minutes of accustoming to the system.
If your concentration would have hiked to the MUSIC your dealer most likely would have done something very pleasant to the system and you should ask him what kind of tuninig is involved. Because for sure there is!

I'm totaly with you that these extreme pricey accessoires are not needed. There are alternatives...and/but they all sound different/better/worse.

Try for yourself to put anything under your Devialet you can imagine. Put some LEGO-bricks underneath or some glasses, half cut tennisballs (yeah the 80's), something soft like a sponge and in heavy contrast some old spikes out of your audio casket.

I swear, if you are not completely deaf you can hear a difference in sound. And there is your first sign if something like those Anzus-puks can have an impact on sound or not. If it gets you nearer to music is another thing.

That's one reason a Dev on a glasboard does not sound alike as on wooden board.

If you don't hear a difference when trying out these odd suggestions...take your time. Try to hear differences at night (1am) when powerline is cleaner and your mood is more relaxed. Everything contributes.
Play with these things and don't get too serious. All by it it's fun.

To my experience the Devialets are very sensitive to tuning. Even if you put it on a highend rack and think it's best decoupled from vibration you get positive results with puks.

The best way to get rid of most of this things is to put your system back to an other room only having the speakers with you and remote everything. As one customer said, it's a hugh difference in sound though I can't tell. Never done it myself and I like the shining of my Dev Cool .

gui
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
(02-Mar-2016, 09:55)yabaVR Wrote: I swear, if you are not completely deaf you can hear a difference in sound.

gui

gui, I think that might be a bit insulting to those that may have already tried and said they don't hear a difference! Wink At 4,600 euro's I don't think they should have to stay up until 3am when the power's at its cleanest and the gods are on their side for any change to be just about audible.

I assume you're a dealer? In this particular brand or just hifi? That's not to say I don't think your comments aren't impartial, but just that there's an obvious reason to be more sceptical compared to a customer who has no connection, and has tried and says they hear nothing….

I'm convinced from my testing of USB cables that if you really try and hear something, you will. This appears to be a fairly sound (no pun intended) assumption based on my understanding of the hearing process. I think all we can do is to try and be open mined about these things - especially if we've not personally tried them - but also be aware that there is a lot of nonsense out there, and some of it is taking advantage of people while making others rich! If someone has plenty of disposable income (they seem to be targeted) and is happy to spend it in this way, then why not I guess….. I probably draw the line earlier than many - I'd personally rather give it to charity than spend it on pucks - but that's just me!

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

(02-Mar-2016, 10:16)Hifi_swlon Wrote:
(02-Mar-2016, 09:55)yabaVR Wrote: I swear, if you are not completely deaf you can hear a difference in sound.

gui

gui, I think that might be a bit insulting to those that may have already tried and said they don't hear a difference! Wink  At 4,600 euro's I don't think they should have to stay up until 3am when the power's at its cleanest and the gods are on their side for any change to be just about audible.

I assume you're a dealer?  In this particular brand or just hifi?  That's not to say I don't think your comments are impartial, but just that there's an obvious reason to be more sceptical compared to a customer who has no connection, and has tried and says they hear nothing….

I'm convinced from my testing of USB cables that if you really try and hear something, you will.  This appears to be a fairly sound (no pun intended) assumption based on my understanding of the hearing process.  I think all we can do is to try and be open mined about these things - especially if we've not personally tried them - but also be aware that there is a lot of nonsense out there, and some of it is taking advantage of people while making others rich!  If someone has plenty of disposable income (they seem to be targeted) and is happy to spend it in this way, then why not I guess….. I probably draw the line earlier than many - I'd personally rather give it to charity than spend it on pucks - but that's just me!

Ok chaps I think we are just going round and round in circles now. I respect everyone's opinion but this has the potential to turn nasty. I'm sure many of you saw what happened to WBF and I don't want it happening on here.

The thread is now locked!  Smile

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)