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Mac AIR v MiND 180 v Auralic ARIES v totaldac d1 server
#31
Thanks Guys ! Can I state that the difference between a 1500 euro PC+software and a 1500 euro appliance is a bit a question of taste ? The difference between a 1500 euro and a 4500 euro solution is clear.
Quality cables are a must.
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#32
PhilP - I almost get the impression Audivarna is a bit like an over-saturated picture on TV, it's just slightly too much. Interesting though I didn't really get this impression on Guillaume's system yesterday where I found it a little more subtle. I have just remember for some reason I've had the 3 settings in General Settings ticked (Exclusive access mode, use max I/O buffer size, integer mode) and I don't think Guillaume does. We both had roblems with these initially then for some reason with me it just decided to start working with them ticked - no idea why. I guess it's probably integer mode that would affect sound quality more than the others?
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#33
(31-Aug-2014, 15:40)Georgethesixth Wrote: Thanks Guys ! Can I state that the difference between a 1500 euro PC+software and a 1500 euro appliance is a bit a question of taste ? The difference between a 1500 euro and a 4500 euro solution is clear.
Quality cables are a must.

Georgethesixth,

That should be the case, but, having demoed a runned in NDX just as digital transport, which retails for around that amount, in my system, I still much rather preferred the sonic signature (more natural and relaxed) that my humble transport provided.
So I can't agree it's such a clear cut, specially when talking about digital audio.

Now, given that the very valuable feedback from Guillaume and Rufus aligns with the experience of the colleagues in France, and given the tech background of the founder of totaldac, the reviews, and given that I sympathise and generally trust more smaller companies (maybe because I work for a multinational Tongue), I am very keen to try this server.
Aurender X100 >> Totaldac USB cable >> D200 >> SF Olympica II

Italy
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#34
(31-Aug-2014, 15:43)Rufus McDufus Wrote: PhilP - I almost get the impression Audivarna is a bit like an over-saturated picture on TV, it's just slightly too much. Interesting though I didn't really get this impression on Guillaume's system yesterday where I found it a little more subtle. I have just remember for some reason I've had the 3 settings in General Settings ticked (Exclusive access mode, use max I/O buffer size, integer mode) and I don't think Guillaume does. We both had roblems with these initially then for some reason with me it just decided to start working with them ticked - no idea why. I guess it's probably integer mode that would affect sound quality more than the others?
Hi Philp and Rufus,
I'm just testing A+ with AIR and a mac mini with maverick. In menu audio set up, I can only selected "Direct mode" in order to have sound when I change the record. Like you, it seems different from Air alone, it seems better but maybe flattering, I have to compare for a long duration.
Devialet 1000Pro > Leedh E2, subwoofer 20.1 > Esprit Volta cables > Mac-mini with Air wifi > Wilson Benesch full Circle
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#35
(31-Aug-2014, 12:11)GuillaumeB Wrote: I also think there's nothing wrong with AIR (ok, apart from some of the reliability issues).

Hi

I am not sure of this statement...

There has been a lot of "uncertainties" about "who" achieves track decoding (making an audio flux with clock signals from the tracks)' for Devialet AIR:
- the computer
or
- Devialet

On the 2 years old Devialet White Paper, it seemed that it was Devialet, AIR transmitting track files (as in UPNP Linn, or Lumin or Ayon streamers) and not an audio flux.

Looking at the current Devialet website and as Jriver or Audivarna can be used, it seems now clear that it is the computer that achieves track decoding, transmitting an audio flux to Devialet.

When doing track decoding on a computer, it is only a first view to say that the clock (hard or software) of the computer is no longer used when the receiver clock masters the process.
In any audio flux protocol, you have to share a "time definition" between emitter and transmitter. And even if it is an atomic clock that drives the process, the computer side clock is still involved and has to be able to "obey" to the main clock.

In my opinion, Devialet streaming could and should have been done with tracks and not with audio flux. Computer software and hardware clocks, general purpose Operating Systems as Windows or OSX, decoding softwares, etc., have difficulties to compete with dedicated chips, clocks and software.
In my opinion, a redesign of AIR protocol (transmitting files and no audio flux) and the addition of a dedicated chip inside the Devialet to decode the tracks, may be the only way to really improve the digital part of Devialet (apart from buying an additional drive), keeping the computer in the role of file server, with 0 audio function.

The possibility of dramatically improve Devialet with a d1-server comes (in my opinion) from this design approach weakness.

d1-server really solves these issues with:
- Linux Real Time as Operating System inside a Cubox
- dedicated power supply to Cubox
- shielding the Cubox
- building any audio flux inside a FPGA with a proprietary Clock (and proprietary algorithms), the Cubox clock being not used at all
- recklocking in the FPGA before any audio flux manipulation and creation.

These principles are also used in Totaldac DACs, solving nearly all the usual issues of SPDIF, AES and USB.

In my opinion, d1-server uses the "state of the art" technologies and design (also much ahead of any Aurender that I tested).
Drives as Auralic Aries or 3DLab Nano, at a much lower price, could be good competitors to d1-server, as they use the same kind of design and ideas.
Only direct comparisons will allow conclusions. I should have an Aries for a review in a week or two...

Cheers
Thierry
S1:  Totaldac d1-server, Trinnov ST2-H, Ayon S5, Orpheus Lab 3M, Klinger Favre D56
S2: Trinnov Amethyst,  Ayon Odin III, TAD Evolution One
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#36
(31-Aug-2014, 15:43)Rufus McDufus Wrote: PhilP - I almost get the impression Audivarna is a bit like an over-saturated picture on TV, it's just slightly too much. Interesting though I didn't really get this impression on Guillaume's system yesterday where I found it a little more subtle. I have just remember for some reason I've had the 3 settings in General Settings ticked (Exclusive access mode, use max I/O buffer size, integer mode) and I don't think Guillaume does. We both had roblems with these initially then for some reason with me it just decided to start working with them ticked - no idea why. I guess it's probably integer mode that would affect sound quality more than the others?
Rufus,

You would certainly have expected A+ to sound better with those parameters selected so it does seem strange that Guillaumes system sounded better when they weren't Undecided

It's certainly not clear to me what differences the various settings in A+ make when running in conjunction with AIR. In fact I'm suspicious that they may not all be working when using AIR even when they're selected.

When changing parameters in A+ I found that I actually had to restart both it and AIR in order for the changes to take effect - in fact I found I easier just to restart my iMac to make sure this happened.
IMac macOS 10.15.3 (no link to Devialet Sad ) / MacBook Pro Retina OS X 10.14.4 / Linn LP12 / Devialet 200 Wilson Benesch Discovery. 
Qobuz Desktop Latest Version / Audirvana 3.2.18 / Audirvana Remote / iTunes 12.9 / AIR 3.0.4 / Wi-Fi / FW 8.1.0 / SAM 50%
Cambridge, UK (Updated 27th February, 2020)
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#37
(31-Aug-2014, 16:49)PhilP Wrote:
(31-Aug-2014, 15:43)Rufus McDufus Wrote: PhilP - I almost get the impression Audivarna is a bit like an over-saturated picture on TV, it's just slightly too much. Interesting though I didn't really get this impression on Guillaume's system yesterday where I found it a little more subtle. I have just remember for some reason I've had the 3 settings in General Settings ticked (Exclusive access mode, use max I/O buffer size, integer mode) and I don't think Guillaume does. We both had roblems with these initially then for some reason with me it just decided to start working with them ticked - no idea why. I guess it's probably integer mode that would affect sound quality more than the others?
Rufus,

You would certainly have expected A+ to sound better with those parameters selected so it does seem strange that Guillaumes system sounded better when they weren't Undecided

It's certainly not clear to me what differences the various settings in A+ make when running in conjunction with AIR. In fact I'm suspicious that they may not all be working when using AIR even when they're selected.

When changing parameters in A+ I found that I actually had to restart both it and AIR in order for the changes to take effect - in fact I found I easier just to restart my iMac to make sure this happened.

Rufus and PhilP,

Here are some images of my settings, as you can see some parameters have been selected:

       

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK
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#38
(31-Aug-2014, 15:22)PhilP Wrote: Thanks Guillaume and Rufus for all your hard work and the excellent write-up. It was very helpful that you provided so much detail on the various configurations that you tried. It seems that the totaldac was the clear winner and it was very interesting to have your conclusions backed up by the tests that Thierry and others have just done in France.

The price of the totaldac at first seems a bit steep given the fairly limited functionality that a streamer provides but the Naim NDX/XPS2 that I was previously using costs around £7.5k and the NDS/555 is £13k so the price is not outrageous. (The Naim streamers do include internal DACs as well. The analogue output from the NDX is ok but ultimately lacking in detail whilst the NDS does sound very good).

Auralic Aries
I must admit that I was disappointed that the Auralic did not perform so well but as others have suggested maybe it's one of those components that does need to be thoroughly run-in before it sounds good. Perhaps you could try it again in a week or so?

Audirvana
I've been running Audirvana+ with AIR and am not sure what to make of it. As Rufus says in his write-up "AV+ seems to do something a bit odd" and I would tend to agree that it seems to exaggerate the higher frequencies and in my system seems to provide a signal a few db greater that AIR on its own. A+/AIR sounds different to vanilla AIR in my system but not necessarily better. However, the question is complicated by the fact that I can't use all the features of A+ as I'm running OS X 10.6.8 so I can't use Exclusive Access Mode, Direct Mode or Integer Mode. It would be interesting to know what A+ settings you were using with Mavericks.

I do not know how AIR works on its own. Does it use features like Direct Mode and/or Integer Mode ?

Thanks PhilP! Smile

Re the ARIES we intend to test this again next week after giving it a few days of proper running in (it had only had about 24 hours before the test). Hopefully it will improve a little.

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK
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#39
(31-Aug-2014, 16:49)ThierryNK Wrote:
(31-Aug-2014, 12:11)GuillaumeB Wrote: I also think there's nothing wrong with AIR (ok, apart from some of the reliability issues).

Hi

I am not sure of this statement...

There has been a lot of "uncertainties" about "who" achieves track decoding (making an audio flux with clock signals from the tracks)' for Devialet AIR:
- the computer
or
- Devialet

On the 2 years old Devialet White Paper, it seemed that it was Devialet, AIR transmitting track files (as in UPNP Linn, or Lumin or Ayon streamers) and not an audio flux.

Looking at the current Devialet website and as Jriver or Audivarna can be used, it seems now clear that it is the computer that achieves track decoding, transmitting an audio flux to Devialet.

When doing track decoding on a computer, it is only a first view to say that the clock (hard or software) of the computer is no longer used when the receiver clock masters the process.
In any audio flux protocol, you have to share a "time definition" between emitter and transmitter. And even if it is an atomic clock that drives the process, the computer side clock is still involved and has to be able to "obey" to the main clock.

In my opinion, Devialet streaming could and should have been done with tracks and not with audio flux. Computer software and hardware clocks, general purpose Operating Systems as Windows or OSX, decoding softwares, etc., have difficulties to compete with dedicated chips, clocks and software.
In my opinion, a redesign of AIR protocol (transmitting files and no audio flux) and the addition of a dedicated chip inside the Devialet to decode the tracks, may be the only way to really improve the digital part of Devialet (apart from buying an additional drive), keeping the computer in the role of file server, with 0 audio function.

The possibility of dramatically improve Devialet with a d1-server comes (in my opinion) from this design approach weakness.

d1-server really solves these issues with:
- Linux Real Time as Operating System inside a Cubox
- dedicated power supply to Cubox
- shielding the Cubox
- building any audio flux inside a FPGA with a proprietary Clock (and proprietary algorithms), the Cubox clock being not used at all
- recklocking in the FPGA before any audio flux manipulation and creation.

These principles are also used in Totaldac DACs, solving nearly all the usual issues of SPDIF, AES and USB.

In my opinion, d1-server uses the "state of the art" technologies and design (also much ahead of any Aurender that I tested).
Drives as Auralic Aries or 3DLab Nano, at a much lower price, could be good competitors to d1-server, as they use the same kind of design and ideas.
Only direct comparisons will allow conclusions. I should have an Aries for a review in a week or two...

Cheers
Thierry

Very interesting Thierry, and thanks for sharing this with us. Smile

My understanding from last year when I had discussions with a couple of Devialet retailers (one of whom had a long conversation with a senior exec at Devialet) was that the Devialet "opened" the music files inside the unit, and that it was the Devialet unit doing the decoding.

Since then there have been new versions of AIR... including a complete rewrite allowing other programmes such as J River and A+ to be used... so I'm guessing this has all changed. The question is why did Devialet change their approach with AIR? Was the previous version unworkable?

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK
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#40
(31-Aug-2014, 17:18)GuillaumeB Wrote:
(31-Aug-2014, 16:49)PhilP Wrote:
(31-Aug-2014, 15:43)Rufus McDufus Wrote: PhilP - I almost get the impression Audivarna is a bit like an over-saturated picture on TV, it's just slightly too much. Interesting though I didn't really get this impression on Guillaume's system yesterday where I found it a little more subtle. I have just remember for some reason I've had the 3 settings in General Settings ticked (Exclusive access mode, use max I/O buffer size, integer mode) and I don't think Guillaume does. We both had roblems with these initially then for some reason with me it just decided to start working with them ticked - no idea why. I guess it's probably integer mode that would affect sound quality more than the others?
Rufus,

You would certainly have expected A+ to sound better with those parameters selected so it does seem strange that Guillaumes system sounded better when they weren't Undecided

It's certainly not clear to me what differences the various settings in A+ make when running in conjunction with AIR. In fact I'm suspicious that they may not all be working when using AIR even when they're selected.

When changing parameters in A+ I found that I actually had to restart both it and AIR in order for the changes to take effect - in fact I found I easier just to restart my iMac to make sure this happened.

Rufus and PhilP,

Here are some images of my settings, as you can see some parameters have been selected:



Guillaume

Thanks. Those are the same parameters that I could set with OSX 10.6.8/AIR so your set-up clearly isn't using the full capability of A+ either Smile

I'm not sure who, if anyone, really understands the technical details of how A+ interacts with AIR. I guess s the AIR developers would be able to tell us but it's possible that even they may not have investigated this in detail.

I remember in a post somewhere on this forum that Thierry from Devialet support had told someone that because of the way that AIR works other players like A+ And Amarra could not improve the sound. Perhaps he's right ?
IMac macOS 10.15.3 (no link to Devialet Sad ) / MacBook Pro Retina OS X 10.14.4 / Linn LP12 / Devialet 200 Wilson Benesch Discovery. 
Qobuz Desktop Latest Version / Audirvana 3.2.18 / Audirvana Remote / iTunes 12.9 / AIR 3.0.4 / Wi-Fi / FW 8.1.0 / SAM 50%
Cambridge, UK (Updated 27th February, 2020)
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