Details of Devialet tone control system etc.

[srima]

First time posting here, from a newbie considering purchasing a D400 or D800. I'm a long-term audiophile, with more than 30 years under my belt of listening to many high end systems. I am a computer science professor, and fortunately live in a rural area, so I can enjoy my hobby with multiple systems. 

I like the portability of the Devialet amplifiers. I own a large house, where I have multiple systems. It would be nice to move the D400 or D800 to different rooms to listen to various speakers (ranging from the massive B&W 800 Diamond to the sublime Quad ESL 63s and 57s, Harbeth Monitor 40s, and the Magneplanar 3.6rs). A lot easier than moving the speakers, especially since some of them are in my basement home theater. 

Unfortunately, I can't listen to the D400 or D800, since there's no dealer near me. Buying something this expensive blind worries me, but I'll put that aside for now. I have a lot of questions, but I'll try to spread them out over multiple postings. 

First off, there's a frustrating lack of detail in Devialet's literature. There is talk of a tone control system, but precisely what does it do? Does it boost or reduce bass or treble around a certain frequency? Or is it a more useful tilt control that reduces all the content above or below a certain frequency? 

In the phono configuration, you are asked to specify the maximum output of your cartridge. This must be wrong, or perhaps not accurately stated. I assume they mean the average output for a specific modulation (most cartridge specs have a rated voltage output, which is of course not their maximum output). 

Finally, Devialet's somewhat exaggerated claims of the Phantom worry me about their claims about the Devialet amplifier as well. Am I to take everything they say with a pinch of salt? "1000 times better than any other speaker"! This is not a scientific statement, but pure hyperbole! I cannot recall another manufacturer making such a statement. For a young company, they must realize such statements will likely turn off serious audiophiles like me! 

Is the Phantom really 1000 times better than the Quad ESL 63 or the Harbeth Monitor 40, two legendary audiophile speakers, both used as reference monitors worldwide. How much of this fancy talk affect the actual performance of their Expert line (perhaps the Phantom line is being marketed to rich non-audiophiles, not to the discerning group of audiophiles who compare the sound of the speaker to the real thing). 

Sorry for rambling, but thought I would get some of my concerns off my chest! I would very much like to buy the D400 or D800, but we're talking a lot of money here, and I want some reassurance from existing owners that these products really do represent the state of the art.  I realize ultimately there's no substitute to actual listening at a dealer, which I am going to try to do over the next week or two. Any advice much appreciated!

[thumb5]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

Your nervousness about the lack of concrete information is quite understandable - Devialet's web site is glossy but rather light on down-to-earth details.  Apart from asking here, one of the best ways to answer the kind of questions you mentioned above is to have a nose around the on-line configuration tool at http://en.devialet.com/configurator/welcome.  In particular once you get into the advanced configurator you can see exactly how the tone controls and cartridge matching work, amongst many other configurable settings.  (Tone controls are under General Settings: Balance & Tone Control, by the way.  They give boost and cut at configurable frequencies, rather than tilt.)

I must say, I do find Devialet's marketing claims a bit hyperbolic and they rather wash over me these days.  The Phantoms are a very impressive feat of engineering, and sound very good to be sure, but even so...

A couple of things to be aware of: firstly, there is a newly-introduced set of "Pro" models so you might want to look at those rather than the current D400 or D800 - at least, if you're buying new.  Secondly, if you're thinking of using the built-in AIR network streaming protocol, it works very well for some people and not so well for others: if you search the site you'll see many discussions about this.  Devialet are working on fixes but they have been a very long time coming, and as yet there are no guarantees that all the problems will be resolved.

I'm sure if you have other questions people here will be very happy to help - it's a very friendly place.

By the way, whereabouts in the world are you?  Maybe someone on the forum might be able to suggest how you might get to hear a Devialet?

Best of luck...

Ian

[srima]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

Your nervousness about the lack of concrete information is quite understandable - Devialet's web site is glossy but rather light on down-to-earth details.  Apart from asking here, one of the best ways to answer the kind of questions you mentioned above is to have a nose around the on-line configuration tool at http://en.devialet.com/configurator/welcome.  In particular once you get into the advanced configurator you can see exactly how the tone controls and cartridge matching work, amongst many other configurable settings.  (Tone controls are under General Settings: Balance & Tone Control, by the way.  They give boost and cut at configurable frequencies, rather than tilt.)

I must say, I do find Devialet's marketing claims a bit hyperbolic and they rather wash over me these days.  The Phantoms are a very impressive feat of engineering, and sound very good to be sure, but even so...

A couple of things to be aware of: firstly, there is a newly-introduced set of "Pro" models so you might want to look at those rather than the current D400 or D800 - at least, if you're buying new.  Secondly, if you're thinking of using the built-in AIR network streaming protocol, it works very well for some people and not so well for others: if you search the site you'll see many discussions about this.  Devialet are working on fixes but they have been a very long time coming, and as yet there are no guarantees that all the problems will be resolved.

I'm sure if you have other questions people here will be very happy to help - it's a very friendly place.

By the way, whereabouts in the world are you?  Maybe someone on the forum might be able to suggest how you might get to hear a Devialet?

Best of luck...

Ian

Hi Ian, 

Thanks for the info. I live in an idyllic college town in New England (USA) called Amherst. Rolling hills, beautiful woods and lush green forests everywhere, and famous writers at every turn (Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson etc.). 

I was planning to use the Devaliet with my existing servers (I have several Squeezebox Touch'es, and Sony HAPZ-1ES) using either optical connection or AES-EBU. I also was planning to try the option of playing music from my NAS through a hardwired Ethernet. I do have fast wifi throughout my house as well (as any self-respecting computer scientist would!). 

I found the closest dealer is about 90-100 miles away, not very near, but not impossible either (this is after all the land of the automobile and fast highways). 

- Sridhar

[Confused]

Firstly, a welcome from me too!

Good advice from Ian I would say, if you take a look at the advanced configurator you should be able to get a very good idea of how the tone controls can be used. Go to 'general settings' and then 'balance and tone controls. Basically, this allows you to set the cut off frequency from which the bass and treble controls start to roll off (or roll up!)

Actually, the words re the phono stage configuration are accurate. As you mention, cartridge manufacturers do tend to state average outputs at a specific frequency, so therefore the maximum output will be higher. But yes, the Devialet requests the maximum. So you have to set with a margin for the headroom. A bit of trial and error, but it is easy enough to do. It is worth mentioning here that the Devialet can be set to display input meters on the little display window. So you can pick out a nice 'loud' record, maybe a deep cut 12" single, or whatever else you have, you can then view the input level, which you need to keep below the red/ 0dB level. It is perhaps worth mentioning that before I bought my first Devialet I felt a little uncomfortable about lovely analogue records going through a pure digital phono stage. I have got over this, it simply is not a problem, in fact the reverse is true, doing the RIAA correction digitally is far more accurate than can be achieved in the analogue domain, and being done in 24bit it is analogue to the human ear. Fully adjustable for any cartridge too, curious that the worlds most digital amplifier is in many ways the vinyl lovers perfect amp.

Don't get me started on Devialet's advertising! You ask, 'Is the Phantom really 1000 times better than the Quad ESL 63 or the Harbeth Monitor 40'. The answer is no. A few folk have challenged Devialet on this, I think their answer was that the '1000 times better' claim referred to other portable speakers. But yes, it's nonsense. To be fair, in terms of power and bass response, bass accuracy the Phantoms are remarkable, and not just for their size. Do they provide the level of detail, insight and accuracy you might get from say a Quad ESL, no they don't. They are good little things though, and if I had a £4k budget for a system they might very well be what I would buy. It is interesting that in the early days, Devialet's website was almost all clear technical information, today it's not!

Now here is a wild guess! I have spent some time listening to the B&W 800 Diamond's in the past, this was being powered by very many Naim boxes. The thing I found with the B&W's was accuracy, detail and a real insight into the music. If you like this, then I'm guessing you'll like a Devialet. Hard to say of course, so take this as inspired speculation. It is also worth noting the almost incredible range of speakers used by Devialet owners on this forum, the range is staggering. So this does suggest that they work with most speaker options, of course a more demanding speaker would need the higher power Devialet's, but that is common sense. The only exception this this I can think of are some of the Martin Logan range. Some of the ML's dip to very low impedances, well below 2 ohms. This does cause some issues. I only mention this because you are planning to use with electrostatics, but to be honest I have no idea if this issue is specific to the Martin Logan's or if the Quads might suffer also. I'm guessing that as a long term Quad owner you will know the answer to this one, in terms of impedance curves.. To be clear, low resistances are not a problem with a Devialet, my own speakers dip a little below 3 ohms I think, but drop much below 2 ohms and you risk some harshness. Conversely there are some happy ML + Dev owners on here, it is not a massive issue, but one owner switched amps because of this. (I love the sound of Quads by the way, I wish I had the room to try them as a second speaker!)

Oh, and another thing Ian is right about, we are quite a helpful bunch on here, so if you have anymore questions or niggles, jump in and ask. (You'll probably get more sense out of us than Devialet to be honest!)

Good luck getting a decent demo!

[Hifi_swlon]

Sridar, bear in mind that (like many settings) the tone control settings for bass/treble can't be adjusted on the fly - they are setup via the configurator, downloaded to the computer, written to the sad card, and then inserted into amp.

There's no specific info about roll off etc as far as I'm aware. I use tone controls a lot while room corrections out of my chain, and I find it incredibly frustrating. For a digital hybrid amplifier with plenty of onboard dsp, the user is given practically zero useful access to be able to harness the power of the system. A 'Dirac-like' custom drawn EQ curve, or multiple parametric EQs - adjustable in real time - would have been a game changer but features like these are always rumoured and never surface!

Since you're technical, also note that you're locked out of modifying config files even though they're plain text. You always have to eject the sad card, configure online, download, write the card, re-insert, and let settings load.

[Confused]

To clarify. The roll off set point is set in the configurator, but the level of bass / treble boost or reduction can indeed be done 'on the fly' using the remote.

[deviousalet]

I'm bringing my D400 over to Sridhar in a few hours, so that should answer some of his questions, but I will post my opinion for others with similar questions (and because I'm interested in the opinion of others here).

I want to add to the chorus of distrust and distain for Devialet's dishonest marketing and poor communication. This forum provides much better support and more accurate information than does Devialet. Without this forum I couldn't recommend buying a Devialet, and I certainly wouldn't have done so.

However I also want to add another voice of assurance that Devialet makes excellent stuff. Their technology really is ahead of most others, and the sound quality is right up there with the best for the money (and that's a high benchmark given the expense) as long as you're seeking a sound more on the "accurate and detailed" side than on the "euphonic and smooth" side.

With a single exception (AIR fails for many people) most Devialet technologies really do work and sound great.
ADH is a great balance of Class-A sweetness and Class-D control. SAM gets closer to the accuracy of an active speaker than most others.
The integration of Devialet products goes beyond most competitors and whole really is greater than the sum of the parts: bettering a Devialet Expert the size of a bathroom scale is only possible by more than doubling the size and cost.
The range of configuration and control is impressive (even if I want more): you can combine and configure Devialet Expert in so many ways. Home theatre bypass: off course (with DSP for enhancing dialog). Want to tri-amp? No problem, they have an active crossover built in. Want to control the amount of bass or roll off treble? Sure, SAM is adjustable, there's an ultrasonic filter, and there are DSP tone controls with adjustable points and slopes. Got multiple sources? The Devialet takes almost anything (so many ports, and all configurable). If AIR works for you (as it does for me) you can play from your phone, computer, NAS, or whatever. Heck the Devialet can digitize records or work as an S/PDIF converter, so is a modern audio computer that plays well with whatever you have.
There are certainly features that Devialet has promised but not delivered (room correction for instance) but that's uncommon (unless AIR fails for you in which case streaming is a failed promise). An integrated streaming board is promised for 2017, but never buy a Devialet promise (buy only what works now).
There are a few annoyances like the lack of an off mode ("off" uses almost the same power as standby), but even so the Devialet are more efficient than most anything else with a Class-A amp and its great sound. Being computers, the Devialet have a boot up time greater than non-computerized amps, but that 13 seconds isn't too annoying. Like all computers, the Devialet have some bugs and compatibility issues. For example some USB streamers (Mutec) or cables (Mad Scientist master/slave link) have issues, but that's pretty rare.
Although Devialet is wrong about cables making no difference with their amps (as they are wrong that their firmware updates never change the sound), the amount of tweaking necessary to get Devialet Experts sounding their best is less than most. So if you love tweaking and replacing components the Devialet (and any other integrated amp) is not ideal. They are ideal for me because I need fewer expensive cables. Two power cords, one master/slave link, and I'm set (since AIR works for me), and I could cut that in half if I didn't want dual-mono Devialet units. However if you enjoy playing there's still room with streamers, input tweaks, and all the cables you could connect to a Devialet Expert.
Devialet lie/cheat by specifying power into 6-ohm (their flagship 900W into 6ohm would be specified as 690W into 8-ohm by anyone else). Even so, Devialet amps provide plenty of power at each price point, and can control difficult speakers with ease as long as the impedance stays above 2-ohm (they do have problems when the speaker impedance drops below that).
Overall I'm very impressed with the Devialet Expert, which sound better to me while providing more features that I want than anything else. I've heard sweeter-sounding amps, but compared to Devialet they lack detail which I miss more than I like the sweetness. I've heard other amps that approach the control and detail of the Devialet, but don't sound as beautiful as the Devialet. I've also heard some amps which work well with some speakers but not others, yet I've taken advantage of the portability of my Devialet to bring them to many speakers and have never preferred other amplification with any speaker I've tried.

As for Phantoms, If you compare the Phantom to other wireless lifestyle speakers the Phantom are significantly better (and more expensive). Comparing Phantom to the best speakers in the world is rather unfair to the Phantom, but that it is a serious comparison is quite impressive. When discussing quality for the money the Phantoms occupy a unique point. Try getting better full-range sound for less money. So although the Phantom don't meet my needs nor live up to Devialet's hyperbole they are amazing active speakers.

[Cylob]

@ deviousalet

https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/artic...ta-testing-

They seem to change their communication. If you check out this topic you can see they are really trying to fix the issues with AIR.
Replies are very quick and accurate. So far I'm very happy with this change.

[srima]

Thanks to Dusty, I got to hear the D400s in my basement theater driving a pair of the massive B&W 800 Diamonds (first generation). They sounded magnificent and I was very impressed, with both the sound and the overall look. Plus the sheer portability of the amps makes them very attractive in moving them to my different rooms. SAM definitively made a difference.

So, the only question that remains is which one to get? The D400, the D440 Pro, or the D800? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Pim]

Thanks to Dusty,  I got to hear the D400s in my basement theater driving a pair of the massive B&W 800 Diamonds (first generation). They sounded magnificent and I was very impressed, with both the sound and the overall look. Plus the sheer portability of the amps makes them very attractive in moving them to my different rooms. SAM definitively made a difference.

So, the only question that remains is which one to get? The D400, the D440 Pro, or the D800?  Any advice would be appreciated.

Original d' Atelier (for the looks)