Poll: How forgiving is the Pro series top end?
This poll is closed.
More forgiving to bright/harsh recordings.
40.00%
14 40.00%
As forgiving to bright/harsh recordings.
25.71%
9 25.71%
Less forgiving to bright/harsh recordings.
34.29%
12 34.29%
Total 35 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Pro vs Non-Pro Top End
#21
(18-Dec-2016, 12:25)Confused Wrote: Maybe we need an 80's CD DSP option for the Pro, something that drops the treble a touch, gives a bit of a mid bass 'warmth' boost.  Crazy?  Maybe, but could work I think.  I would say though that rather than buying and setting up a system to deal with harsh recordings, the alternative option when faced with a 'harsh' sounding recording, would be to turn the treble down a notch or two, simple!  An even simper approach would be to note that the particular CD, album or whatever is a little harsh in the treble, ignore it and enjoy the music for what it is.

Being able to easily toggle the tone controls on or off would be a great option to add to the remote.  Or multiple tone presets via the mobile app.  The Devialet and it's little screen doesn't lend itself well to quick tone control changes.  I'd love to set the tone controls once for my harsh 80s music and be able to easily defeat it.
Roon->HQPlayer->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301s>Transparent Super->Wilson Audio Sabrinas w/ Shunyata Denali, Rega RP8, Rega Apheta 2


Reply
#22
(18-Dec-2016, 16:26)Dr Tone Wrote:
(18-Dec-2016, 12:25)Confused Wrote: Maybe we need an 80's CD DSP option for the Pro, something that drops the treble a touch, gives a bit of a mid bass 'warmth' boost.  Crazy?  Maybe, but could work I think.  I would say though that rather than buying and setting up a system to deal with harsh recordings, the alternative option when faced with a 'harsh' sounding recording, would be to turn the treble down a notch or two, simple!  An even simper approach would be to note that the particular CD, album or whatever is a little harsh in the treble, ignore it and enjoy the music for what it is.

Being able to easily toggle the tone controls on or off would be a great option to add to the remote.  Or multiple tone presets via the mobile app.  The Devialet and it's little screen doesn't lend itself well to quick tone control changes.  I'd love to set the tone controls once for my harsh 80s music and be able to easily defeat it.

Wise words Dr Tone, I could not agree more.  In fact you have given me an idea for another interesting poll.....
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - microRendu - Mutec MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
Reply
#23
(18-Dec-2016, 14:47)yabaVR Wrote:
(18-Dec-2016, 13:26)Confused Wrote: I've been doing much listening to my little Pro this morning.  First some Herbie Hancock, which was great fun, it is clearly not the best recording ever, but getting over that philological hurdle, it did sound very enjoyable, if not showing the system in it's best light, but there is still some magic, the dynamics are great, and the insight into the instruments is extraordinary, good fun too!  Next up, some Yello, this was a much better recording and suddenly the system is sounding epic!   Whatever the shortcomings were with Herbie, these have now gone, just by selecting a different album.  I'm now listening to the Who, and in a great irony for this thread, it sounds like the mix does not have enough treble!

As I said you can't get rid of the inherent jitter of the recording e.g. listen to 'Birdy - Birdy' (as Antoine suggested earlier) . For me it's a cheaply made recording and it's got quiet an amount of jitter in it hence the harsh in treble. But listened to by a 'perfect' system adding no more jitter it might be bearable.

The Who might have a good A/D processing on this CD but the treble on the old analogue tape also might have suffered or equipment wasn't that good with this recording/analogue mastering. Your Pro is as transparent to show you the diffs. It's conclusive to me then.

gui

Oddly enough, I did listen to some of the tracks posted by Antoine, but chose not to post on the subject, mainly because I had to listen to them using Spotify and AIR, so not fully representative.  The Birdy track did not sound too bad to me, the thing that struck me most was what I would interpret as poor implementation of microphones.  Curiously, I really enjoyed the suggested Metallica track, but it did have a slightly metallic quality in some respects, no pun intended.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - microRendu - Mutec MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
Reply
#24
The list of songs I mentioned earlier are merely quick examples of the different nuances I can hear in reproducing upper mids/treble of recordings and where I would 'scale' them. Again these to me are just examples of recordings all in their own way off from neutral in this respect. Smile

All are perfectly listenable and enjoyable on my system without changing the volume or wanting to adjust tone controls (never touched those BTW Smile) and in fact I love some of these (e.g. the Angus and Julia Stone album).

The Pro upgrade improved reproduction of all recordings/productions including these. In another topic I mentioned that I find the top end production simply better. SonicLife did the exact same thing in this topic. I too found it difficult to vote to this poll but in the end both reasoned and felt that a better top-end reproduced with lower distortion equates to a more forgiving reproduction even though the Pro is actually simply more transparant and imparts less of an own character to music.

Edit: when I said it would still sound "like crap" I meant of course compared to excellent recordings. Metallica will never sound like Diana Krall (god forbid Big Grin) of course.
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


Reply
#25
(18-Dec-2016, 13:02)Confused Wrote:
(18-Dec-2016, 12:54)yabaVR Wrote:
(18-Dec-2016, 12:25)Confused Wrote: Maybe we need an 80's CD DSP option for the Pro, something that drops the treble a touch, gives a bit of a mid bass 'warmth' boost.  Crazy?  Maybe, but could work I think.  I would say though that rather than buying and setting up a system to deal with harsh recordings, the alternative option when faced with a 'harsh' sounding recording, would be to turn the treble down a notch or two, simple!  An even simper approach would be to note that the particular CD, album or whatever is a little harsh in the treble, ignore it and enjoy the music for what it is.


I think it's not the magnitude of treble that we all complain about. I bet the frequency response of these recordings isn't out of level if you meassure it.

It is all about jitter - a time dependent distortion if you will, that our ears are not capable of to compensate on. It's an unnatural distortion.
Some CDs carry a lot of jitter in its recording (due to bad digital recording or bad A/D processing). You can not change that. Jitter patterns add up during reading/streaming/amplifying (D-Amp) and you would get more and more of these 'Out of Phase Signal Patterns'. One brain earlier like the other complains about the harsh sound of treble. This harsh sound is only an 'Out of Phase Signals' and as we are very sensible in the highs we recognize it easier in this frequency band.

I know this because when the source is getting more precise, jitter lessens and the harshness goes away...it gets In Phase to the rest of the music signal and contributes to further transparency and 3D-Mapping.

Get better power, source quality and cables and everything will be ok.

By the way, I think you're correct, those pills my doctor gave me are really not helping either.....

Lowering the treble is like the pill from your doctor who doesn't know what caused your illness.

gui

Fair enough, I can see your point, but my rig has a knob for turning down the treble, it hasn't got one for turning down jitter.  Also, if jitter is an inherent part of the CD's recording, logic dictates that this will not be changed by changing cables.  A better source might help?  Can the source correct jitter errors in the CD?  Or will it just make them more apparent?  This one I'm not sure about!

The jitter on the recording stays but with e.g. good source and a Mutec and a fine USB + AES-EBU cables, you would likely get very little jitter added to the already present jitter on the recording.
If a Devialet is treated with fine power cable/seperate power line/footers/etc. to produce very low jitter inside while processing the music signal then everything will sound quiet nice I would say.
It is the combination of jitter of every part of the system in sum that makes the good or bad performance of a Devialet. I think this is often misunderstood.

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - WS2016/AO 2.20 b5/foobar 1.3.16 /jplay 6.2/process lasso server edition (beta)/fidelizer 7.9 Pro/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 exWifi/exPhono-board- 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
Reply
#26
(18-Dec-2016, 18:19)yabaVR Wrote: The jitter on the recording stays but with e.g. good source and a Mutec and a fine USB + AES-EBU cables, you would likely get very little jitter added to the already present jitter on the recording.
If a Devialet is treated with fine power cable/seperate power line/footers/etc. to produce very low jitter inside while processing the music signal then everything will sound quiet nice I would say.
It is the combination of jitter of every part of the system in sum that makes the good or bad performance of a Devialet. I think this is often misunderstood.

gui

Hi gui,

Makes sense but why would the treble sound harsher if the only thing I am replacing in the chain is the upgraded amp? Since the sources, power cables, etc., remain unchanged, I assume that the amount of jitter is constant when comparing the pro vs. the non-pro.

BB
D250 Pro | Piega Coax 10.2 | JL Audio Fathom SW
Win 10 Music PC w Optane M2, AO, JCAT Net Card & Roon Server
HDPlex PSU | Uptone LPS-1 | Trinnov Amethyst
MX Vynl | T+A G 2000 R | Oppo 205
Bavaria Germany
Reply
#27
It didn't get harsher here, rather the opposite...but since the Pro is more transparent it could show upstream faults/shortcomings easier as these are less masked.

I think part of it (I'm referring to possible increased sensitivity to harsher recordings here) is due to psychoacoustics as well. If distortion or noise is always there because the source, amp or anything upstream adds it, one gets used to that and won't notice it until it's gone (unless it's really bad and distracting of course). When it's in a recording it's not always present but only in that or those specific recordings so you'll notice it easier then.
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


Reply
#28
baconbrain,

It's got nothing to do with source hardware. The original rolled the sheen off the top end ever so slightly. Apparently the Pro is more transparent and lets it all through.

Depending on your speakers and or the music this might be an issue or it could be a good thing.
Roon->HQPlayer->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301s>Transparent Super->Wilson Audio Sabrinas w/ Shunyata Denali, Rega RP8, Rega Apheta 2


Reply
#29
(18-Dec-2016, 23:53)baconbrain Wrote:
(18-Dec-2016, 18:19)yabaVR Wrote: The jitter on the recording stays but with e.g. good source and a Mutec and a fine USB + AES-EBU cables, you would likely get very little jitter added to the already present jitter on the recording.
If a Devialet is treated with fine power cable/seperate power line/footers/etc. to produce very low jitter inside while processing the music signal then everything will sound quiet nice I would say.
It is the combination of jitter of every part of the system in sum that makes the good or bad performance of a Devialet. I think this is often misunderstood.

gui

Hi gui,

Makes sense but why would the treble sound harsher if the only thing I am replacing in the chain is the upgraded amp? Since the sources, power cables, etc., remain unchanged, I assume that the amount of jitter is constant when comparing the pro vs. the non-pro.

BB

It's difficult with words. Everybody gets a different picture when we talk about 'more open' and 'more transparent'. I like to use analogies to get the picture.

You won't notice the ripples of a stone thrown into a troubled sea, but you see every oscillation of that stone thrown into a mirror surfaced lake.
The psychoacoustic here is that the ripple of the stone is the same in both scenarios but as it gets more to your attention with the mirror surfaced lake and it bothers you more (a profound jitter).
The brain is united with the even surface by the first second (it's closer to natural). It is it's new standard but then there comes this profound jitter and it bothers it more than before though it being the same as before...and...I may be all wrong about this. Rolleyes

Here's another one.
When speaking of 'more open' think of lighter.
If you have e.g. a pendulum and you induce a power on it, it would deflect to a certain amount.
If it then was a ligther pendulum you induce the same power it would deflect to a greater amount. The PROs are lighter/easier to oscillate on influences. They react with a greater deflection.

gui
- D200 (mod) - ML Motion40 (mod) - Manger P1 (mod) - WS2016/AO 2.20 b5/foobar 1.3.16 /jplay 6.2/process lasso server edition (beta)/fidelizer 7.9 Pro/ssd/laptop(mod)/usb-D200 exWifi/exPhono-board- 
"Oh, you can buy the other. But then it is a cost intensive learning process"
berlin
Reply
#30
I haven't exactly gone from Expert to Pro but going from 200 to Od'A has definitely resulted in less sibilance. Whether that is because of going mono or because the amplification method is better I can't say. Let me try to get a grip on this my way:

Less sibilance would mean to me that the amplifier 'rounds things off' a bit. This would then automatically mean it is less transparent to the source. But the Od'A is more resolving so that theory doesn't add up. Unless you can hear more into the music because the sibilance doesn't 'cover it up' (add noise that's more prominent than the music so it takes 'centre stage')

The Od'A also sounds more natural, meaning it adds more body to instruments and voices. This again could be because of the lack of sibilance but it could also be because the 200 was struggling a bit with the C1's. The C1's need power and the 200 just didn't cut it. SAM made a difference in the lower registers but the Od'A doesn't need SAM to almost give the same powerful lows. That probably explains why people with bigger speakers, who would also have bigger amplifiers, didn't notice as much of a difference as those with smaller (lower sensitivity?) speakers.

I did set up my Od'A with the 10.something firmware at first but changed back to 9.something when I made some changes to the config. 10.whatever did sound more forward but I only used it when the amp was brand new and I haven't since so it's hard to tell if that makes a difference. But I do remember people saying 10.whatever was a bit bright when it first came out and was used on Experts only.

Has anyone tried firmware 9 on a Pro? No idea if it works but worth a try.

Having said all this; this afternoon I played a few Bruce Springsteen songs. I turned the bass up by 4 dB and the treble down by 2 dB. It's not ideal but still very enjoyable. I'm no purist; I'm an enjoyist, if there is such a word.
Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, O d'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable, Dynaudio C1 MkII.
Jim Smith's GBS.
Northern NSW Australia.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)