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Upsampling in Roon 1.3
#11
(03-Feb-2017, 00:42)El_Duderino Wrote: Given that the Devialet Expert upsample all incoming bit rates to 24 bit 192 kHz PCM -- including incoming DSD64 -- is there any theoretical advantage to setting the ROON DSP to upsample to anything other than 24 bit 192 kHz for all sources? Is there any theoretical advantage to upsampling to DSD64 since this will be converted to a PCM stream by the Devialet DAC in any case? In essence, what are the theoretical "optimal" settings for the ROON 1.3 DSP engine feeding a Devialet Expert?

I think this is a very interesting question.  It would appear logical that because Devialet's ADH runs in PCM, then the optimum solution is to feed the Devialet PCM.  This does leave the question as to if it is best to perform this via Roon prior to the Devialet, or just send the Devialet 16/44.1 or whatever and let the Devialet do the work.  I think this is a case or try it and see (hear), I suspect that results will be system dependant and may vary between those feeding the Devialet via AIR, microRendu, Mutec or whatever else.

Again using logic, it would appear that there is no point upsampling to DSD.  Consider that if you take a PCM file, upsample it to DSD, send to the amp, and all that then happens is that the Devialet's 'MAT DSD Engine' will convert it back to PCM.  So you start with PCM, end with PCM, and surely all the processing in between can only be harmful?  This would be my firm view on the subject if it was not for the audition I had last year of the dCS Vivaldi upsampler and clock.  In this demo the Vivaldi was connected via AES/EBU to a Devialet D800.  I had a playlist of tracks on a USB thumb drive, mostly 16/44.1 material.  The guy from dCS stated that the system would sound best upsampling to DSD.  I argued that because the Devialet would simply convert this back to PCM this was pointless, the Devialet runs on PCM, so send it PCM.  We then agreed to try both, we ran through the same selection of tracks via upsampling to DSD, then again upsampling PCM, then again with some select tracks back on DSD.  I knew for sure it would sound better via PCM, the problem was that it didn't, it sounded best via DSD.  To be honest, I have no idea why, and I would like to spend a lot more time listening to understand this, logic still tells me upsampling PCM should be better.  So how does this relate to Roon?  My view is that we all need to go away and try this, I do not think that the end result is predicable.  Also, I do not think that my experience with the dCS can be extrapolated to extend to DSD via Roon.  The dCS Vivaldi and Clock retails for £24k in the UK (gulp), so I would hope this is a little closer to 'state of the art' than DSD upsampling via Roon on a £1k Windows PC, or whatever.  That's not to say that it is impossible that DSD via Roon could be superb, I just think that there are so many variable here that speculating is of limited use.  I suggest we all need to experiment, share results, and see if some kind of consensus emerges.

There are other 'head to head' tests to consider, such as how does Roon upsampling compare to HQPlayer?  All DSD files are DSD, but how they came to become DSD is not necessarily the same.

Then there is another 'head to head' to consider for Mutec MC3+USB users.  For example, I could upsample to DSD via Roon and send to the Devialet via microRendu for Devialet's MAT DSD engine to deal with.  Alternatively, I could send DSD DoP to via mR to the Mutec, and let the Mutec convert DSD to PCM.  This might be interesting, Mutec vs Devialet MAT?

So there is a LOT to try here to work out what works best with a Devilalet.  Here's hoping we can keep this thread reasonably on topic to sensibly share the results.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#12
I can give my opinion on Roon doing 44.1->DSD as I did give it a quick try. In summary I didn't like it very much.

Every thing got way to soft, transients were extremely rolled off. I had tried jRiver doing the same in the past and didn't feel it was quite to this extreme. I only tried 5th order maybe 7th is better.

I've also seen a complaint on the the Roon forums that having the DSP engine on doing nothing caused changes in sound that weren't desired.
Roon->HQPlayer->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301s>Transparent Super->Wilson Audio Sabrinas w/ Shunyata Denali, Rega RP8, Rega Apheta 2


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#13
Hi guys I am getting great results using Roon (on my sT) to upsample to 16bit to 24/176.40 and 24/192 with the linear phase filter.

The sound is airier and more expansive, the 176.40 setting is particularly interesting. Tried DSD but I get dropouts and tracks start jumping, I guess the sT isn't quite powerful enough. What little I hear is nice and is making me want to upgrade my sT! Smile

This is using my totaldac d1 server and d1-six DAC. Haven't tried with the Devialet yet.

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

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#14
(03-Feb-2017, 21:31)GuillaumeB Wrote: Hi guys I am getting great results using Roon (on my sT) to upsample to 16bit to 24/176.40 and 24/192 with the linear phase filter.

The sound is airier and more expansive, the 176.40 setting is particularly interesting. Tried DSD but I get dropouts and tracks start jumping, I guess the sT isn't quite powerful enough. What little I hear is nice and is making me want to upgrade my sT! Smile

This is using my totaldac d1 server and d1-six DAC. Haven't tried with the Devialet yet.

Guillaume

Is the Absolare amp a permanent thing in your system? I heard it with Kaiser Kawero Classic speakers, a great amp perhaps one of the best integated
Speakers:TAD CE-1. Amplifier: TAD M2500mk2. Digital: TAD DA1000-TX, Innuos Statement Next-gen, Innuos PhoenixNET.

Miscellaneous: Qobuz Studio, Ansuz Mainz 8 D2, Ansuz Darkz DTC, Tubulus Argentus ethernet cable, Tubulus Concentus USB cable, Tubulus Argentus V2 XLR cable, Tubulus Argentus V3 + V3 bass, iFi Nova powercables. 

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Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree









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#15
(03-Feb-2017, 21:31)GuillaumeB Wrote: Hi guys I am getting great results using Roon (on my sT) to upsample to 16bit to 24/176.40 and 24/192 with the linear phase filter.

The sound is airier and more expansive, the 176.40 setting is particularly interesting. Tried DSD but I get dropouts and tracks start jumping, I guess the sT isn't quite powerful enough. What little I hear is nice and is making me want to upgrade my sT! Smile

This is using my totaldac d1 server and d1-six DAC. Haven't tried with the Devialet yet.

Guillaume

If the white paper I attached is correct, the Devialet will over sampling the 176.4 to 192.  We really need confirmation on this.

If it's the case, it makes the most sense when you do the Devialet to just convert everything right to 192 in roon or leave it alone I guess.
Roon->HQPlayer->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301s>Transparent Super->Wilson Audio Sabrinas w/ Shunyata Denali, Rega RP8, Rega Apheta 2


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#16
(04-Feb-2017, 01:57)Dr Tone Wrote:
(03-Feb-2017, 21:31)GuillaumeB Wrote: Hi guys I am getting great results using Roon (on my sT) to upsample to 16bit to 24/176.40 and 24/192 with the linear phase filter.

The sound is airier and more expansive, the 176.40 setting is particularly interesting. Tried DSD but I get dropouts and tracks start jumping, I guess the sT isn't quite powerful enough. What little I hear is nice and is making me want to upgrade my sT! Smile

This is using my totaldac d1 server and d1-six DAC. Haven't tried with the Devialet yet.

Guillaume

If the white paper I attached is correct, the Devialet will over sampling the 176.4 to 192.  We really need confirmation on this.

If it's the case, it makes the most sense when you do the Devialet to just convert everything right to 192 in roon or leave it alone I guess.

When using HQPlayer, my preference clearly lies with upsampling to 192/24 prior to feeding the Dev. I imagine that this will vary between the individual setups / tastes. Curious to try with Roon 1.3 as HQP in NAA mode as been my favorite so far.
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#17
I have just tried a bit of Roon upsampling. Using 16/44.1 material, I set Roon to upsample to 192kHz. A few A/B tests, and I have to say that for me I noticed very little difference.

I then tried upsampling to 176.4kHz. Here I think I did actually notice some improvements, slightly nicer to listen to more definition to the sound stage. Very subtle, but something there. A switched back and forth a few times, and then started to wonder if I was imagining it. I think any improvements are lurking on the edge of what can be influenced by expectation bias. Looking forward, I would certainly be happy to leave Roon set on 176.4kHz for a while and see if anything becomes apparent in simple long term use. Does any of this make sense? Maybe, from what I know, the conversions to the exact multiples are relatively easy (44.1 to 88.2 to 176.4), but the odd upsamples (44.1 to 96 or 192) are more difficult. So setting Roon to 176.4 lets Roon do a bit of grunt work on the easy bit, leaving the Dev to do the last odd bit. Please note this is nothing more that casual musings and wild speculation on my part. More time needed to evaluate this one!

EDIT: I have just had a quick try upsampling to DSD. This was simply upsampling to DSD64, with the Mutec sending DoP to the MC3+USB which then converts to PCM to feed to the Devialet. A very clear first impression here, it was quite a bit quieter! This was with the +6dB gain boost. I decided at this point that I had had enough of A/B testing for one day!
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#18
Would totally agree with Confused on impressions at 176.4, though a multiple of 2 rather than 4 (88.2) also sounds quite nice with a balance between articulation and relaxed presentation.  So far my experiments with dsd via dop with the mutec USB passing the dsd signal to the devs (I.e mat engine) have resulted in a slight loss of detail - too smooth for my tastes . . will have to try mutec USB conversion next.
Roon/mac mini > hqplayer > sms-200 ultra and MC-3+ USB both clocked via Mutec Ref 10 > MIT Oracle MA-X AES/EBU > D440 > Dynaudio C1 MkII via MIT Matrix HD-60
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#19
(05-Feb-2017, 03:37)Spindrift Wrote: Would totally agree with Confused on impressions at 176.4, though a multiple of 2 rather than 4 (88.2) also sounds quite nice with a balance between articulation and relaxed presentation.  So far my experiments with dsd via dop with the mutec USB passing the dsd signal to the devs (I.e mat engine) have resulted in a slight loss of detail - too smooth for my tastes . . will have to try mutec USB conversion next.

Are you sure you are outputting DSD to the Devialet via the Mutec?  My understanding was that the Mutec can accept DSD/DoP but will only output PCM.  For example, if I send DSD64 to the Mutec and then check what the Devialet is receiving it indicates 176.4kHz.

I could well be wrong here.  Does anyone know for sure that the Mutec can output DSD?  Previously my understanding was that it can't.

As another update, I have just tried running the microRendu direct to the Devialet via USB, with Roon upsampling to DSD64.  In this set up the Devialet displays DSD64 indicating that the 'MAT' algorithm is indeed in use.  To my ears this did not sound very good at all, very disappointing.  Everything sounded somehow thinner and a touch harsh.  There was the also occasional 'cracks', very similar to that you would get with vinyl, so I am wondering if something was not working 100% as it should.  Strange, because this issue was not apparent running DSD64 to the Mutec.

My conclusion so far is that the best set-up is either to use Roon to upsample to 176.4kHz, or alternatively turn off Roon's DSP engine and send the Mutec good old native 16/44.1.  I would need more time to separate these two though.

EDIT: I found this on CA, a post by Mutec's Julian Davidin response to a similar DSD query:

"The MC-3+USB does not pass through DSD64 without converting to PCM as this would either require re-clocking the native DSD signal or disabling the re-clocking stage entirely. If we were to disable the re-clocking, then there wouldn't really be a benefit to having the MC-3+USB in the chain. What exactly are you trying to do?

Julian"
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#20
I'm a huge fan of DSD and find native DSD sounds wonderful. I think Jared Sacks' recordings are the best on the planet. But I can't understand what the advantage would be of upsampling PCM to DSD. Can someone explain this? It seems like it would just degrade the signal and potentially create noise by further taxing the processor.
SYSTEM 1:Grimm MU-1 running Roon Server & Ready//Grimm TPM//GRIMM LS1be
SYSTEM 2: Antipodes DX Roon Server// MiniDSP// Grimm TPM// Dutch & Dutch 8C

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