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Is AIR getting better in the Pro era? Thoughts of little steps.....
#21
(24-Jul-2017, 17:59)ogs Wrote:
(24-Jul-2017, 15:37)thumb5 Wrote: What exactly do you have in mind by "less processing of the data flow"?  Do you mean there might be some DSP done on what comes in via AES/SPDIF but not on the AIR/USB data?  Given that it's all digital anyway, why would you be concerned about that?  (I am genuinely interested in your thinking, not being argumentative.)

I do not know really... we'd need the block-diagram to know exactly, but I am thinking that AES/SPDIF has a separate receiver chip while AIR is "directly" connected and USB with the XMOS processor may be connected similarly to AIR. This is all guesswork anyway, but from listening I have a feeling AES is somehow less transparent than AIR which leads me to this.
Yes, there is one clear difference between AIR/USB and AES/SPDIF, AIR/USB are both asynchronous protocols, AES/SPDIF is not.  Which takes us back to how exactly the Devialet 'extracts' the clock from the AES/SPDIF feed.  I would love some more details on this point, if nothing else it would give me a clue as to if adding a Mutec REF10 might offer a sensible improvement or not. Shy
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#22
(25-Jul-2017, 13:14)Confused Wrote: Yes, there is one clear difference between AIR/USB and AES/SPDIF, AIR/USB are both asynchronous protocols, AES/SPDIF is not.  Which takes us back to how exactly the Devialet 'extracts' the clock from the AES/SPDIF feed.  I would love some more details on this point, if nothing else it would give me a clue as to if adding a Mutec REF10 might offer a sensible improvement or not. Shy

Of course, asynchronous vs sample rate embedded. There may also be a difference in USB vs AIR. USB is terminated in the XMOS controller and AIR is terminated (I guess) directly in the amplifier. Maybe a question for one of the Devialet shop sessions this autumn?
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Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#23
Roon Air in my setup and IMHO brings the presentation slightly more forward and more immediate from what Devialet Air did. I dunno if this is a good / bad thing but it does give a better 3-dimensional sense of feeling ...
Roon Nucleus w/ Hypsos PSU & AQ Tornado + Roon RAAT  >  AQ Diamond ETH > etherREGEN using SFP + Hypsos PSU | CEC TL-5 CD Transport + AQ Z3 + 3 x Orea Indigo > AQ Diamond AES/EBU 
Devialet 440-Pro CI >  AQ Wel Sig  RCA-XLR | 6 x Orea Bronze, 2 x Synergistic Research Atmosphere PC | B&W 802 D3 {Bi-wired}  >  AQ WEL Signature (Biwire)
REL G1-Mk2 pair | PS Audio PP 12 + AQ NRG-1000 | Puritan GroundMaster + RouteMaster | SAM DISABLED - DPM OFF - Northern Virginia - US
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#24
Hmm, well I am no techie and much of what you guys discuss here is Greek to me and just flows over my head. I admit I am frequently indebted to my friend, a member here and fellow Devialet owner who is a computer engineer.

So, in my simplistic way, since Roon introduced direct streaming to Devialet Air, I have been comparing this direct feed via Ethernet with my mRendu, also directly Ethernet fed. I have fast broadband and also use a Sonore SonicTransporter. The mRendu is furnished with a quality Long Dog Audio LPS. The USB cable is basic standard. There is a Gigabit switch in the line and I read earlier that my Expert 220 Pro probably does not accommodate that?

Anyway, bypassing the switch and feeding Roon directly (Ethernet) into Air seemed to work OK on basic settings, although I felt the sound was better resolved through the mRendu. When dsp was switched on in Roon, I suffered regular 'scratching' and drop outs. I could only use the direct connection satisfactorily with dsp disabled. In contrast, running through the mRendu, it is totally stable including with dsp switched on and the splitter switch in circuit.

Oh, and I really like it this way. For the time being, I'm sticking with this. The sound through mRendu with dsp switched in is the best I can get and it is absolutely stable. It gives me the best 3D imaging with individual sound sources well in their own space, sound stage width and depth and a general sense of authoritive sound that seems simply right. I know it's right because I want to have it playing all the time. To me, in my system, Roon/Air seems to me to be the poor relation. I am hoping this will change when the new streaming board arrives.

All this using DIY quality loudspeakers which as yet have not been SAM'd and as you might expect, DIY cables.

I'll be interested in what others think about my take on all this.
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#25
Thanks for your posting Greg. My take on this is we are living in good times, lots of different options for great sound.

In my setup using Roon with either AIR3 or now Roon with AIR integrated have provided me great sound. In fact with the AIR3 introduction, I found the sound difference between that and the microRendu negligible and sold my microRendu. However that being said, an entirely different setup that yours, different room, different ears, and difference preferences.

I am just so happy we have moved quickly from the days when USB was the only option. If nothing else this has totally streamlined my equipment setup, cable collection and odd & sod pieces of kit. However that is me, and a personal preference of mine as of late.

I enjoyed your posting and it looks like you have invested a good deal of thought into your setup with excellent results!
Roon ROCK on Intel NUC6i5SYH/Ethernet | VPI Avenger | Devialet 440 Pro CI | Vivid Audio Giya G3 | Auralic Aires Mini | Synology 1812+ NAS
SXSW, US
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#26
(27-Jul-2017, 22:40)Greg Wrote: Anyway, bypassing the switch and feeding Roon directly (Ethernet) into Air seemed to work OK on basic settings, although I felt the sound was better resolved through the mRendu. When dsp was switched on in Roon, I suffered regular 'scratching' and drop outs. I could only use the direct connection satisfactorily with dsp disabled. In contrast, running through the mRendu, it is totally stable including with dsp switched on and the splitter switch in circuit.

Very strange that you'd get unstable sound with AIR and DSP and not mRendu and DSP. The load on Roon Core is very similar for both, might even be a bit less with AIR than RAAT.
Are you sure you used the same DSP settings for both? I run Roon Core on an i5 NUC (Debian Linux) and can stream to a mR or AIR direct without any problems. I use the DSP in Roon for both PEQ and convolution. Have you tried to increase the buffer setting in AIR? (the default setting=500ms for wired).
Maybe this post by Brian Luczkiewicz over at the Roon forum can help clarify: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/crackle...et/28559/4
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Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#27
Last week something occurred to me.  Two years ago we had the introduction of firmware 8.X.X and SAM2.  As things turned out there was an issue with the KEF Blade SAM profile for SAM2, for a while I had all sorts of bass issues.  During this time I kept a playlist of tracks where bass was problematic in my system.  To cut a very long story short, the SAM issues were resolved, but almost one year ago I discovered an unexpected use for the 'problematic bass' playlist.  The words below are an extract from a post I made in August 2016:

Since then I have been using SAM, usually somewhere between 20% and 40%. Last year when I was first pondering the SAM V2 issues I set up a little playlist, so if I happened to be playing a track that I found to be particularly problematic with SAM V2, I shoved it into the playlist. Last weekend I just wanted to play some random tracks, and for no particular reason selected the playlist of SAM V2 problematic tunes. The thing is, they all seamed to sound quite good. Ummm. What has changed? Well one thing has changed, I was listening via the microRendu & Mutec MC3+USB With a chunk of free time this morning I tried a little experiment, SAM wound back up to 100% I played the tracks again via AIR3 / JRiver WASAPI. I made some notes re the bass for each track, here are some examples of the words used 'horrific', 'Rumble', 'unnatural', you get the idea, all was not good with some of the bass. I then played again via Roon / mR / Mutec. OK, for some tracks there was too much bass, with this material SAM could still do with winding back a bit, but the thing is, everything sounded OK, nothing odd or unnatural, maybe a tad too much bass but it did all sound good. The bass was natural, clear no rumble or overhang, all good. So after all, it looks like SAM V2 with the Blades is working just fine, exactly as it should, only with AIR / WASAPI the source signal was not up to the level of performance that the rest of the system can deliver. A definite bits are not bits moment! I have been singing the praises of the Mutec recently, I guess from subjective listening, but this was a real eye opener!

Zooming back to 2017, it occurred to me that this playlist might be useful in gauging the difference between AIR3, AES3 input and USB input with the Pro.  Consider that some of these tracks sounded utterly horrific via USB and AIR2 on the Expert, but OK via Mutec AES3, would this relationship change with the Pro?  At a similar time I had also tried kit like the Melco N1Z, this sounded superb, but again I picked up some slight issues with the lowest bass.  A case of plenty of bass via USB, but better bass via AES3.  One explanation for lack off bass definition is jitter, so you could argue that a decent USB source was being held back a little due to Devialet's implementation of USB, casing a little bloating of the bass.

So this morning I revisited my playlist of tracks which are either problematic or challenging with bass, depending on how you look at it.  These were tried via mR/Mutec/AES3, Roon AIR, and mR direct to USB.  If the results were the same as with the 'old' Expert I would expect mR/Mutec/AES3 to be best, AIR next up, and mR direct to have lots of bass but to sound fairly poor with these tracks due to some bloating of the bass.

What I can say is the results with the Pro were very different!

I ran through the tracks and made notes, just to record if a particular track sounded OK, slight bass bloating, and so on.  The end results for mR/Mutec/AES3 and Roon AIR were pretty much identical.  With some tracks I think I might put Roon AIR ahead as sounding best, after more listening, too close to call.  I suspect the mR/Mutec/AES3 is perhaps going an absolute fraction deeper making Roon AIR sound cleaner with these tracks.  To be honest, the clearest observation I can make is that in real terms there was absolutely nothing in it.

The big surprise was then trying the mR direct via USB.  Not an easy one to rapid A/B test, as it requires a cable swap, an mR reboot, the PC then cannot find the mR and so on, then a PC reboot, Roon settings get confused, and so on.  ARRRGG!  Anyway, I got everything sorted and, much to my surprise, the run through of the tracks with mR direct via USB showed less bass issues than either Roon AIR or AES3.  So all good?  No, not really, because there was slightly less bass and it was not digging as deep.  In fact, versus Roon AIR or AES3, everything sounded a bit softer and less distinct, just plain not as good everywhere.

This does then beg a question.  How would the Pro sound with one of the more 'state of the art' USB sources?  Different than versus AES3 than with the Expert I would say, which means all my past accumulated experience with Aurenders and Melcos, AES versus USB, is perhaps of limited use with the Pro.

Speculating, I think that via AIR and USB, the asynchronous performance of the Pro is better versus the Expert.  I cannot really say how good the USB input is because I have nothing better to hand than an mR.  That said, definitely a lot of the clarity and magic had gone with the mR /USB, previously I quite liked the mR even direct to USB, lowest bass issues apart.  So I suspect that AES3 remains king.  The thing is, Roon AIR pretty much matches it and might even be a touch better in some respects.  This then begs another question, how would things compare with a top level source via AES3, such as the Aurender W20 with master clock or dCS Vivaldi?

For me, I'm done for a while now.  The problem now is that the above question might become historic very soon if the Core Infinity board is good.  So it's time to sit back, enjoy the tunes and see what the future may bring. Shy
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#28
Thank you Confused. Except for the fact that I still have the Expert 400, I am on the same path as you. I really like the Aurender N10, but if the Infinity Core brings all, I might upgrade to 440 Pro. Just waiting it out.
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#29
(06-Aug-2017, 13:24)Confused Wrote: For me, I'm done for a while now.  The problem now is that the above question might become historic very soon if the Core Infinity board is good.  So it's time to sit back, enjoy the tunes and see what the future may bring. Shy

I'm going to enjoy watching whether you manage to hold out or not, almost as much as I'm 'enjoying' waiting fir the CIb itself.  Big Grin

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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