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Antoine's system
Hi Antoine and BaconBrain,

I am successfully running the µ-rendu in NAA mode with HQPlayer and a bridged network interface under Mac OS X as described in the Romaz contribution.
Not sure whether this is helpful for BaconBrain, but if you have questions Smile
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(09-Jan-2017, 20:19)SwissBear Wrote: Hi Antoine and BaconBrain,

I am successfully running the µ-rendu in NAA mode with HQPlayer and a bridged network interface under Mac OS X as described in the Romaz contribution.
Not sure whether this is helpful for BaconBrain, but if you have questions Smile

Hi SwissBear,

Why does it not surprise me that you already have this up and running?  Smile

What is your impression? Has it had a similiar impact with your system as mentioned by Romaz and others?

Appreciate your offer and although I will be trying this under windows, I pretty sure I will have a question or two.  Blush

BB
D250 Pro | Piega Coax 10.2 | JL Audio Fathom SW
Win 10 Music PC w Optane M2, AO, JCAT Net Card & Roon Server
HDPlex PSU | Uptone LPS-1 | Trinnov Amethyst
MX Vynl | T+A G 2000 R | Oppo 205
Bavaria Germany
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(09-Jan-2017, 22:27)baconbrain Wrote: What is your impression? Has it had a similiar impact with your system as mentioned by Romaz and others?

Hi BaconBrain,

Sorry Antoine to pollute your thread Smile

Subject to the confirmation bias, I am happy with this new solution, which fits my expectations very well (convolution to achieve room correction is important for me and HQPlayer probably is the very best at it). I still have a lot of room for optimization in the field of LPSU before I can report breathtaking improvements like Romaz anyhow. But this does encourage me to go in this direction and I will order a LPS-1 as the next step.
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No need to apologize SwissBear, I don't see any pollution here. Smile Though perhaps it would be better if I'd ask Rufus or Guillaume to move the 'direct connection' posts to a dedicated topic so that people would feel to be more free to post away.

Nothing meaningful to report yet from my side on the subject. After thinking about it some more I decided to start with the bridge (vs. the routed approach I mentioned earlier). This way I would start more like Romaz suggested and would allow me to go from there.

So last wednesday I tried to establish a bridge but it soon became clear that over time I had tweaked my Windows 10 Pro installation too much for it to do anything but running Roon Server and being a basic file storing NAS. Big Grin So I decided it would be easiest to start fresh and re-install Windows. I tweaked it mostly the same way (removing all bloat, disabling services not needed, etc. etc.) but not dress things down too much yet on the networking part of Windows.

After everything was done I created the bridge and did some technical tests and soon found that this bridge thing absolutely kills SMB performance. Sending files to the machine was not as good as before (full and stable gigabit speed) but OK but getting files from it was -terribly- slow (~1-3 MB/s). Same was true for upload speeds TO the Internet. After Googling I found that many people noticed similar issues and no 'fix'. Removing the NIC from the bridge immediately restored the performance. So I may test SQ this coming weekend using the bridge but will soon focus on better ways if it proves wortwhile.

Romaz tested and reported no improvements when using the FMC's in his direct path but I was interested if it would negate any improvements so it's good to know it doesn't as this allows me to using a direct fiber path to the SMS-200 and not break the galvanic isolation I currently have.

In a way I really hope to not hear any improvements as it might also 'force' me to seriously reconsider re-instating my previous 'tweaked' music server. I would really prefer the current simple setup of a standard machine in a different room. Though my SR7 PSU would be able to power it at 12V/8A. Smile
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


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The bridge is up&running now with the SMS-200 connected. Easy peasy, plug&play! Smile

Powered down the SMS-200. Took the downstairs FMC upstairs, connected it to the Intel I210-T1 NIC (PCI Express) of my music server. Then unwound the 20m fibre cable and connected it to the FMC connected to the SMS-200 first and then to the upstairs FMC and the fiber link light lit up.

Then just instructed Windows to add both NIC's to a bridge and set the previous IP config of the primary NIC to the new bridge adapter and powered up the SMS-200 which booted and got it's IP address from the DHCP server in my router as the Eunhasu immediately loaded when I visited it in my browser. In effect this instruction works as indicated: http://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-an...windows-10

Listening to the system now and music I've listened to often in the past few weeks and I need more time to be absolutely sure (confirmation bias is a bitch!) but my first impressions are about as positive as all I've read thus far, this direct connection indeed seems to do something very good. Does it ever end? Smile

Sound staging seems to be more accurate and in any case more enveloping/extended in all three dimensions with better separation but without losing cohesion. Low level detail retrieval has improved (or distortion/jitter is lowered) making everything sound more natural/cleaner/easier to follow also enhancing microdynamics and reproduction of vibrato and subtle timbre variations like in piano and guitars. Bass is also more powerful/direct and notes develop more fully, from beginning to end.

Next after some more listening: try to convert from a bridged adapter setup to two separate routed subnets to restore throughput performance.

NB. I've only tested with Roon RAAT and will test Airplay/Shairport mode later. I don't need anything else.
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


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(14-Jan-2017, 17:03)Antoine Wrote: Next after some more listening: try to convert from a bridged adapter setup to two separate routed subnets to restore throughput performance.

NB. I've only tested with Roon RAAT and will test Airplay/Shairport mode later. I don't need anything else.

Antonie,

Glad to hear that you have it up and running. Although I have managed to create a bridge, my mR doesn't want to be recognized in NAA mode. Guess there is a good reason why Jesus and Jussi do not support that particular constellation...  Confused

I am also suffering a lack of throughput. In particular when uploading data from the music pc. Would be interested in your seperate routed subnet approach if that turns out to be the solution to the problem.

BB
D250 Pro | Piega Coax 10.2 | JL Audio Fathom SW
Win 10 Music PC w Optane M2, AO, JCAT Net Card & Roon Server
HDPlex PSU | Uptone LPS-1 | Trinnov Amethyst
MX Vynl | T+A G 2000 R | Oppo 205
Bavaria Germany
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Hi Baconbrain,

Sorry to hear it doesn't work out for you. I can think of three things to try in your situation (assuming there have been others for which NAA works in bridge mode, I haven't kept track).

If I'm not mistaken HQPlayer NAA uses mDNS (multicast DNS) for device discovery, at least it used to. This means that all hosts need to be in a single subnet/broadcast domain for them to be able to find each other. This is similar to Apple's Bonjour protocol (and other similar protocols like Zeroconf, uPnP, ...). Separate routed subnets won't work for these protocols which I myself realized yesterday after thinking over my own plans. If I'd go this path I'd have to sacrifice the Shairport (Airplay) functionality of the SMS-200 as it's anything but easy to work around this issue (I'd need some sort of software that proxies/forwards/mirrors/repeats this type of traffic into the second subnet. Easy on Mac and Linux using readily available software but not Windows)

To troubleshoot your issue you could try the following:
1. For mDNS to work in a bridged setup the bridge should be a layer 2 bridge which requires your NIC's to operate in promiscuous mode. If they don't, for whatever reason, the bridge will operate in layer 3 mode which doesn't route/forward broadcast and multicast traffic breaking the mDNS, Bonjour etc. type of protocols. You can't easily check in what mode it is running and there's not much you can do but for sure I'd update your NIC drivers so install the latest manafacturer issued device drivers and check again.

2. go back to the previous working state so undo the current bridge configuration and configure the first "primary" NIC connecting to your network like you normally would. Then undo any of the IP configuration of the "secondary" NIC connecting to the mR and just set it to 'obtain an IP address autmatically' and 'Obtain DNS server address automatically'. Then after confirming restored network connectivity for your PC and a reboot just to be sure, re-apply the bridge configuration like detailed here: http://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-an...windows-10 but ignore the suggestions Clipper made on CA about assigning IP addresses to the secondary NIC in a different subnet (they make absolutely no sense!).

3. If step 1&2 don't work you could try the procedure outlined here: http://lifeofageekadmin.com/how-to-manua...-72008-r2/ This will try to force your NIC's into promiscuous mode. Just ignore this being about Windows Server 2008 R2. These settings are available on Windows 10 as well (I tried them in an attempt to troubleshoot the upload throughput issues).

Good luck!

edit: I have confirmed Airplay/Shairport works in my setup so NAA should too but I have no ways to test it (NAA) as I don't own the HQPlayer software and don't want to trial it at this moment (one can only trial it once, at least officially so I want to safe that option for later).
Also I'll keep searching and experimenting for a solution of the troughput issue until I run out of options. If I find a solution I'll share it here.
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


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Well I've just completed the routed setup after seeing the "horrific" effects of the bridging thing on my network. In an attempt to see why upstream speeds are so slow I used Wireshark to sniff the network traffic. The traffic on the NIC to the SMS-200 was clean but on the other interface to the regular network each and every packet was duplicated and/or ACK'ed twice, out of order etc. Since there are no ways (I know of/could find) to configure proper forwarding rules or to fix this in any other way I just gave up on it for now and switched to this routed setup.

To elaborate a bit for those wanting to reproduce:

NIC 1 is the primary and regular interface to my network. It has a fixed IP 192.168.1.1/255.255.255.0 and the default gateway to my Internet router which is also the DNS server.
NIC 2 is the secondary interface to the SMS-200; fixed IP 192.168.2.1/255.255.255.0 and no default gateway.

For this to work you have to enable IP routing (example instructions here: http://keepthetech.com/2016/01/enable-ip...ows10.html) in the Windows machine and install a DHCP server on it. (for example this one which I used and works perfectly: http://www.dhcpserver.de/cms/)

The DHCP server with an active DHCP scope 192.168.2.2 to 254 is active on NIC 2 only and gives out the IP address to the SMS-200 which doesn't support fixed IP's (same goes for the microRendu). It sets the DNS server to the IP adress of my router/DNS server and the default gateway to 192.168.2.1.

Also I've added a static route in my router for the 192.168.2.0 network with the gateway to 192.168.1.1. This allows any machine in my network to connect to the SMS-200.

This setup works perfect with Roon, the SMS-200 is found and I can stream music to it but as expected Shairport/Airplay mode does not work for the reasons I detailed in my previous post.

I'll play with this setup for a while and re-evaluate later, for now I'm done as it's beginning to feel like work! Wink
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


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(15-Jan-2017, 17:37)Antoine Wrote: Well I've just completed the routed setup after seeing the "horrific" effects of the bridging thing on my network. In an attempt to see why upstream speeds are so slow I used Wireshark to sniff the network traffic. The traffic on the NIC to the SMS-200 was clean but on the other interface to the regular network each and every packet was duplicated and/or ACK'ed twice, out of order etc. Since there are no ways (I know of/could find) to configure proper forwarding rules or to fix this in any other way I just gave up on it for now and switched to this routed setup.

To elaborate a bit for those wanting to reproduce:

NIC 1 is the primary and regular interface to my network. It has a fixed IP 192.168.1.1/255.255.255.0 and the default gateway to my Internet router which is also the DNS server.
NIC 2 is the secondary interface to the SMS-200; fixed IP 192.168.2.1/255.255.255.0 and no default gateway.

For this to work you have to enable IP routing (example instructions here: http://keepthetech.com/2016/01/enable-ip...ows10.html) in the Windows machine and install a DHCP server on it. (for example this one which I used and works perfectly: http://www.dhcpserver.de/cms/)

The DHCP server with an active DHCP scope 192.168.2.2 to 254 is active on NIC 2 only and gives out the IP address to the SMS-200 which doesn't support fixed IP's (same goes for the microRendu). It sets the DNS server to the IP adress of my router/DNS server and the default gateway to 192.168.2.1.

Also I've added a static route in my router for the 192.168.2.0 network with the gateway to 192.168.1.1. This allows any machine in my network to connect to the SMS-200.

This setup works perfect with Roon, the SMS-200 is found and I can stream music to it but as expected Shairport/Airplay mode does not work for the reasons I detailed in my previous post.

I'll play with this setup for a while and re-evaluate later, for now I'm done as it's beginning to feel like work! Wink

Antonie,

Thanks for sharing. I have been able to make progress in my setup after I determined that my Delock USB 3.0 Lan Adapter was the culprit. After I removed it from the bridge and replaced it with my on-board wireless NIC, things just came alive! HQPlayer recognized my mR in NAA mode almost instantly and my through-put is back to normal. I can now stream 192/24 to my mR without stutter via Roon, Tidal and my NAS based library. It is almost to good to be true. I am a very happy camper at the moment.  Big Grin

BB
D250 Pro | Piega Coax 10.2 | JL Audio Fathom SW
Win 10 Music PC w Optane M2, AO, JCAT Net Card & Roon Server
HDPlex PSU | Uptone LPS-1 | Trinnov Amethyst
MX Vynl | T+A G 2000 R | Oppo 205
Bavaria Germany
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@BB, great to see you have solved it! The issue may have been this promiscuous mode issue I detailed in my post before the previous. Not that it matters anymore, since it now works! Smile


--
After several days of 'living with the changes' I am very much sure that my initial impressions are both right and real. I'm really amazed by it all and can't even think of the reasons and mechanisms at work (though I strongely suspect reduced jitter levels are the result) all I know is it sounds great, much more "stable and clean" and real. No downsides detected thus far, none! Live recordings too have way more realism making it even easier than before to become transported to the venue where these were played. Smile Again those recordings many people may label as bad recordings have improved as well (surely even more in a relative psychoacoustic sense than those easy and clean more 'audiophile friendly' ones)

I could easily stop here and be -very- happy but of course there's more to do, isn't there always? Wink Some people on CA have reported removing the FMC's from the chain improves things even more. So need to try that too, easy enough since my music server is a headless machine. Just a power cable and network cables need to be plugged in so I'll temporarily get the server from my office/study and put it in my living room near the system and use the AQ Diamond now connected to the SMS-200 and FMC, directly to the dedicated NIC on the server.

If this improves things indeed even more (hard to imagine each and every time) I will probably build a new small fanless machine (NUC style) based on a 'thin ITX' mainboard with a 12V DC input, Skylake CPU, dual onboard NIC's and power it using my Hynes SR7 PSU. Another option would be a ready build machine with 12V input or of course use my previous music server (which I still use for video streaming). This currently has a HDPlex ATX PSU that can't be powered with 12V though so I'd have to replace that with a PicoPSU style PSU that does support 12V input. To be honest I'm hoping though that things don't improve so I can leave it like it is now. Smile
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital/Lessloss DFPC Signature/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Roon, SoTM sMS-200, Curious USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands


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