Ingrid Fliter - Chopin Preludes (Linn Records)

[thumb5]

Well, I've been in touch with Linn Records who have been very helpful.  They forwarded my description of what I'm hearing -- much as I outlined in the original post -- to their producer and engineer for the recording.  He confirmed that the noise is present on the original recording, saying:

This is damper noise – the sound the piano makes when the dampers are released slowly and the damper felt makes light contact with the string before it damps completely.

You can hear it on many piano recordings and is essentially inherent in the instrument – it’s more of a problem in quieter music  (particularly when the Una Corda is being used as well) and it is particularly troublesome in some of the romantic repertoire such as Chopin, where the harmonic movement requires great clarity of pedalling (so that each chord sounds cleanly) but where piano and legato are paramount.

So there we are: mystery solved, and I'm relieved to discover that I wasn't kidding myself about this.

I must say I'm very impressed by how Linn Records handled this: they've been very quick to reply, and have taken my question seriously without giving me any run-around.  Getting a reply directly from the recording engineer was unexpected and feels like it's the authoritative answer.

[GuillaumeB]

I am most perplexed by this. I had another listen and to my ears I just don’t hear any of this fizz on the piano notes. I’ve even stuck my ear right next to the left speaker and turned it up loud. Nada.

Here’s the review that Hi-fi News published back in December 2014, they gave the 24/192 version 90% for sound quality.

   

Guillaume

[brit]

I am most perplexed by this. I had another listen and to my ears I just don’t hear any of this fizz on the piano notes. I’ve even stuck my ear right next to the left speaker and turned it up loud. Nada.

Here’s the review that Hi-fi News published back in December 2014, they gave the 24/192 version 90% for sound quality.



Guillaume

Hi Guillaume & Ian,

I am currently away from home so can not have a re-listen to mine, but like Guillaume, I  certainly could not hear anything out of the ordinary, on my 192/24 version, the last time I played it (also with ear to speaker - both left & right) - and I did try it a number of times when Ian first reported his "concern". Anyway I am glad to hear that Linn were very prompt, and thorough, with their response, and have hopefully put Ian's mind to rest!

The point that is made by Linn, about "requires great clarity of pedalling", is certainly obvious from my download, as every note is very detailed, and clear, but certainly no fizz. Hopefully Ian can now sit back and enjoy, perhaps with a glass of "fizz"  .

David

[thumb5]

Hello Guillaume and David,

Sorry for the slow follow-up to your posts.  The way I understand it from Linn's explanation, there is no conflict between what I heard and the reviews extolling the sound quality of this recording: what I was hearing was a natural feature of the piano that the recording has captured as it would have sounded "live".  Maybe you're both hearing it and thinking "ah, yes, that's the natural sound of a piano" whereas I heard it and thought "hmm, that sounds a bit odd" and started obsessing about it...

Anyway, as you said David, now's the time for me to just sit back and enjoy listening, with a glass of something nice.  Cheers!

[Confused]

I was sufficiently intrigued by this thread to purchase my own copy to try. I even went so far as to get the 24/96 ALAC version, to be consistent with the OP's copy . So did I hear any obvious (or even subtle) buzzing or fizzing? I have to be honest here, I did not. So much kudos to Ian's cat like hearing!

I think I will bookmark the track to use a as a future demo / A/B test track. I do have some tentative plans for upgrading the system, and of course the Core Infinity board is approaching. (slowly) What I am thinking is one day I may make that last tweak and gain that last bit of detail and insight that will allow me to finally experience 'Ian's fizz'.

Of course, maybe I was hearing it and somehow my brain (much like Guillaume and David's brain?) somehow processed and recognised the sound differently. Who knows, although how our brain hears things is a fascinating topic. Also, I'll probably revisit this track when I am in a slightly more relaxed frame of mind than I am at the moment. Maybe I am just in the wrong mood for Ian's fizz today? (I am a long way from being totally relaxed at the moment) Interesting though, and for the record I enjoyed the music & performance far more than I expected! It is good to try something outside of your normal listening 'comfort zone' occasionally.

[thumb5]

Good of you to try it, Confused - and even better if you enjoyed the music by accident!

In retrospect, "fizz" is probably not the best description of the sound.  It's a transient, very soft buzz or slight "crunch" where you'd expect a completely pure attack and decay.  It only affects some of the chords; the quieter passages are much more prone to it, especially the first minute or so of Prelude 15.  To focus down even more, try listening between five and ten seconds into that track.  If you're unfortunate enough to know the distorted sound of a damaged speaker cone, it's a bit like that only much more subtle of course.

[Confused]

Good of you to try it, Confused - and even better if you enjoyed the music by accident!

In retrospect, "fizz" is probably not the best description of the sound.  It's a transient, very soft buzz or slight "crunch" where you'd expect a completely pure attack and decay.  It only affects some of the chords; the quieter passages are much more prone to it, especially the first minute or so of Prelude 15.  To focus down even more, try listening between five and ten seconds into that track.  If you're unfortunate enough to know the distorted sound of a damaged speaker cone, it's a bit like that only much more subtle of course.

Oddly enough, I have had considerable past experience of damaged speaker cones, mainly through DJ'iing, PA systems, as well as domestic hifi.  A sign of one's misspent youth unfortunately. More recently, this is a particular area of expertise that I would consider to be of no practical use whatsoever.  Until now it would seem! 

If only I could find a use for my melted voice coil experience.

Anyway, I am 'away from my system' for a few days now, but I will revisit this one when I get time.  I don't quite know why but I am strangely intrigued by this one now.

[Confused]

I have spent a bit more time listening to Ingrid this morning, another week, another day. As it happens I am in a far better mood than I was last week, and you know what, I think I can hear 'Ian's fizz'. Or maybe not? The thing is that today I am hearing something pretty clearly that does not sound quite right to me, I am as sure as I can be that this is what was disturbing Ian a little, but I would perhaps describe it a little differently. To me is it sounds a bit like someone breathing and individual exhaling breath into a box of sand, that is how I would describe it. So I guess it is down to Ian to decide if that as a description fits what he himself was hearing. I have often though that human language is a little lacking in the necessary vocabulary to describe everything we can hear, after all, I have just used a slightly bonkers way to describe a sound, I mean, who on earth is actually familiar with the sound of a breath in a box of sand?

That said, the sound (assuming Ian and myself are hearing the same thing) is one of those things that you might not notice, you wont hear it at all, but once you notice it, it is there, every time, you cannot ignore it. Stuff like this fascinates me, and I think it does give some insight into the curious world of how the ear, and even more crucially the brain, work together to produce what we call hearing. It also gives some insight into why A/B testing similar sounding / quality hifi components is so difficult and sometimes misleading. I think I'll play some techno and calm my synapses down a little now.....

[thumb5]

That's a very imaginative description; have you ever thought of a career in literature?  But it definitely sounds as though you're hearing what I heard.  Once you pick it up, it's very hard to "un hear", as you said.  At least after Linn's reply you can rest assured that it's not a problem with your system or hearing.  Once again, thanks very much for taking the time to try this out.

Your point about the way the brain works is well made; it fascinates me too.  Mrs thumb5 and I had a holiday in Vienna a couple of years ago, where there's a very good museum of music.  Apart from lots of stuff about their orchestra and opera, and (great) descriptions of how musical instruments work, there was a really interesting section showing some interactive "aural illusions".  (As an aside, I'm not sure why we're not more familiar with that term, optical illusions being so widespread.)  These were truly astonishing and illustrated very well how much of what we hear is "made up" to match what we subconsciously expect.  It's a long way to go just for the museum, but I can recommend it if you ever happen to be in Vienna.

Funnily enough I'm back on piano music again after having "gone off it" a bit for the last few weeks: I'm listening to a lovely piano concerto by Rautavaara at the moment.  (Might switch to something heavier a bit later when I have the living room to myself.)

[Confused]

That's a very imaginative description; have you ever thought of a career in literature?  But it definitely sounds as though you're hearing what I heard.  Once you pick it up, it's very hard to "un hear", as you said.  At least after Linn's reply you can rest assured that it's not a problem with your system or hearing.  Once again, thanks very much for taking the time to try this out.

Your point about the way the brain works is well made; it fascinates me too.  Mrs thumb5 and I had a holiday in Vienna a couple of years ago, where there's a very good museum of music.  Apart from lots of stuff about their orchestra and opera, and (great) descriptions of how musical instruments work, there was a really interesting section showing some interactive "aural illusions".  (As an aside, I'm not sure why we're not more familiar with that term, optical illusions being so widespread.)  These were truly astonishing and illustrated very well how much of what we hear is "made up" to match what we subconsciously expect.  It's a long way to go just for the museum, but I can recommend it if you ever happen to be in Vienna.

Funnily enough I'm back on piano music again after having "gone off it" a bit for the last few weeks: I'm listening to a lovely piano concerto by Rautavaara at the moment.  (Might switch to something heavier a bit later when I have the living room to myself.)

A career in literature?  I am not sure if that was a compliment or sarcasm after my 'breathing into a sandbox' line.   Anyway, it's too late for me, too many years in the big bad world of heavy engineering.  Completely off topic waffle, but my brother has actually worked as professional writer, so maybe something in the genes?  At one time big brother did concert and album reviews for the Daily Telegraph and edited the arts and books page.  It is actually very interesting to read reviews in an established and respected(?) publication that have been written by someone you know well, and indeed have spend a big chunk of your life disagreeing with, particularly with respect to things music related.  It makes you realise that all reviewers are very human, fallible and can be wrong, at least respect to your own world view.  I think this applies equally to those reviewing hifi kit in established and respected(?) hifi publications.  In fairness to big brother, he did have a very high degree of integrity, this is in a world where we suspect all reviewers are beholden to powerful distributors and advertisers.  I know he was once offered a bribe from a publisher to provide a suitably favourable review of a newly released book. He returned the book to the publisher with a short review that read "For a more satisfying literary experience, try nailing your scrotum to the floor of your local library".

As for Vienna, I can think of very many reasons for visiting Austria, so I will keep the museum in mind, it sounds like just the kind of thing I would enjoy.