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Phantom Gold Confusion & Expert Pro Question
#1
Hi everyone,

I want to share the weirdest experience of my audio / high-end life with you. I've been living with a new set of phantom golds for the past 2 weeks. They are on the tree stands in perfect stereo triangle the way I would set up other systems. As I'm a sound engineer my room is treated to have the perfect dampening/reflection ratios with absorption/dispersion... in the strategically important spots.

For me the phantom gold experience is the single most disappointing experience I've ever had with an audio product. After having tried them also in other rooms, I have to say: how can anyone in this forum deem this a good high-end product? Anyone who ever heard a truly good system would be unable to make such judgements. What I hear is this:

The good:
  • They are spectacular for watching movies and playing videos games as the lowest octaves are truly rock solid and the amp power is there.
  • They are very good for all artificially created sounds (e.g. electronic music). (Oddly the transients are not so slow here).
  • Bass power. Bass impulse response.
  • Lack of ported speaker design artifacts.
The bad:
  • Acoustically recorded music: almost unbearable. All instruments sound as if somebody has poured liquid plastic over them. 
  • The decay of the instruments is not realistic. 
  • Transients: terribly rounded and slow. I can only assume that this is due to the mid-range driver and tweeter. The mid-range driver has far too little radiation area and cannot move enough air, especially when having to compete against these woofers. Same for the tweeter. In this designs config, they would have to be horn-loaded to become seriously alive. Both drivers seems to be slow and sluggish, they just have too much mass. This metal material of the mid-range driver seems to be a very poor choice.
  • Soundstage: mushy. no true "phantom center". no stable and clear left-right or front-back localization. everything is somewhere somehow.
  • Mids: practically non-existent. A true mid-hole. As said, the radiation area of the mid-range driver is a joke in comparison to the woofer capabilities. The result is an unbalanced energetic dispersion across the frequency band.
  • Highs: Where is that extra high-end sparkle of the golds? I had the silvers previously, which I sold after 2 weeks as well. I got the golds due to the wish for convenience and all reviews suggested that the problems are fixes. They are not. The highs of the golds are a little better (10%) but are miles away of what a true hifi/high-end driver can do. Especially a ribbon or air-motion-transformer or even an electrostat.
  • Sound density: the claim of Devialet to bring dense sound is true which leads to instruments not having breathing space around them. Everything is mushed together.
  • Dynamics: Not there. Everythings seems to have almost the same playback level. Micro-dynamics: forget it. Macro-dynamics: sometimes when there's real volume jumps in the source material. All the musical intricate dynamical details are lost completely. This is most off-putting as in theory, I had assumed, the amp technology would be able to deliver this. But the drivers are not. Maybe it's also the firmware and I guess the devices have waaaaaaay too much jitter. Also, as the electronics are inside the speakers they are probably victim to microphonics. Even with this amp technology. 
So I decided to get rid of them asap. And now my question to you all is this, especially to those who feel that the golds are great boom-boxes and not much more: is the expert pro line the same? What I mean is this: Is the expert pro line also overrated in reviews and sounds like this:
  • soulless
  • like plastic
  • slow transients
  • lack of micro-dynamics
  • mushy soundstage
  • mid-hole
  • ...
I still wish for a simple and convenient solution and not a chain of 6 components. I have a PS Audio Directstream. In contrast to the Phantoms, it is the single best audio component, I have ever heard or invested money in. I was close to selling it to get an expert pro but the Phantom experience discouraged me greatly. I live in a place where it's difficult to get a listen at a dealer for a live comparison. So what can you tell me? Is the expert pro line also just hype-train or does it actually sound like music.

For the speaker question my advice coming from 18 years of high-end experience:
  • Buy speakers that make as few mistakes as possible so they don't need to be DSP corrected.
  • Buy speakers with as few crossovers as possible.
  • Buy speakers with the largest radiation area possible (highs & mids also, not only bass).
  • Buy speakers with the lightest drivers possible (little mass).
  • Buy speakers that either don't have a box (open baffle) or a box that is absolutely vibration free if you don't fancy dipoles.
  • Buy speakers that are either Coaxes or Line Sources.
This actually simplifies high-end life as it narrows down choices extremely to:
  • Magnetostatic transducers: ribbons, air motion transformers. ("Piega Master One" was the best, I've ever heard).
  • Electrostats (full range having no crossovers at all).
To give a practial, not too expensive example: Connecting a "Hedd Type 30" (around 6K) active monitor directly to my DAC, completely obliterates the Phantoms. The Hedds are light years better even though the AMT in this config only serves as the tweeter and the mid-driver is a piston driver...
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#2
Perhaps the dampening reacts badly with the Phantoms. I agree they are not the best speaker by a long way but neither are they as dire as you state although that is based on the silvers having never heard the gold model. Panel speakers are also marmite as are horns.
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#3
Clearly you are a very discerning listener with a very analytical ear and mind to explain your opinions in such great detail

Obviously all my previous set ups, including Meridian DSP6000 and Mordaunt Short Performance 6LE with Roksan mono blocks and pre amp, were also a load of rubbish - as I prefer the Phantoms.

Then again I am more than happy to admit that I am a sucker for marketing and beautiful shiny things, and believe it's possible that Devlaiet have simply told me they sound good, meaning I hear them as such

Same result either way - I love them and wish I could hear the examples you mentioned in my living space, that would make me come to my senses and realise what good hifi really sounded like Smile

Not that I have £6k plus whatever your DAC cost anyway.....
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#4
Hi etch,

Are you from another brand or from another planet!!
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#5
@etch , you should probably aim for a pair of Kii THREE. Strange you have not noticed them already. The Kii speakers have studio monitor background. Check them out...
*
Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#6
@Johnnydev,

Why are you saying this "from another planet"? Does it seem so weird what I'm saying? No I'm definitely not from another brand.

@ogs,

I know about the Kii Threes and it was between them and the Phantoms. Hence my frustration, although I'm afraid now that the Kii three discussions and reviews might be just another hype train as well...

Anyone can give some insight if the expert pro line holds up to traditional high-end electronics?
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#7
I would say that a Devialet 200 is at 8/10 in respect to sound quality to a Gryphon 300, to my setup

Στάλθηκε από το ALE-L21 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
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#8
"Hi everyone,

I want to share the weirdest experience of my audio / high-end life with you. I've been living with a new set of phantom golds for the past 2 weeks. They are on the tree stands in perfect stereo triangle the way I would set up other systems. As I'm a sound engineer my room is treated to have the perfect dampening/reflection ratios with absorption/dispersion... in the strategically important spots.

For me the phantom gold experience is the single most disappointing experience I've ever had with an audio product. After having tried them also in other rooms, I have to say: how can anyone in this forum deem this a good high-end product? Anyone who ever heard a truly good system would be unable to make such judgements. What I hear is this:

The good:
  • They are spectacular for watching movies and playing videos games as the lowest octaves are truly rock solid and the amp power is there.
  • They are very good for all artificially created sounds (e.g. electronic music). (Oddly the transients are not so slow here).
  • Bass power. Bass impulse response.
  • Lack of ported speaker design artifacts.
The bad:
  • Acoustically recorded music: almost unbearable. All instruments sound as if somebody has poured liquid plastic over them. 
  • The decay of the instruments is not realistic. 
  • Transients: terribly rounded and slow. I can only assume that this is due to the mid-range driver and tweeter. The mid-range driver has far too little radiation area and cannot move enough air, especially when having to compete against these woofers. Same for the tweeter. In this designs config, they would have to be horn-loaded to become seriously alive. Both drivers seems to be slow and sluggish, they just have too much mass. This metal material of the mid-range driver seems to be a very poor choice.
  • Soundstage: mushy. no true "phantom center". no stable and clear left-right or front-back localization. everything is somewhere somehow.
  • Mids: practically non-existent. A true mid-hole. As said, the radiation area of the mid-range driver is a joke in comparison to the woofer capabilities. The result is an unbalanced energetic dispersion across the frequency band.
  • Highs: Where is that extra high-end sparkle of the golds? I had the silvers previously, which I sold after 2 weeks as well. I got the golds due to the wish for convenience and all reviews suggested that the problems are fixes. They are not. The highs of the golds are a little better (10%) but are miles away of what a true hifi/high-end driver can do. Especially a ribbon or air-motion-transformer or even an electrostat.
  • Sound density: the claim of Devialet to bring dense sound is true which leads to instruments not having breathing space around them. Everything is mushed together.
  • Dynamics: Not there. Everythings seems to have almost the same playback level. Micro-dynamics: forget it. Macro-dynamics: sometimes when there's real volume jumps in the source material. All the musical intricate dynamical details are lost completely. This is most off-putting as in theory, I had assumed, the amp technology would be able to deliver this. But the drivers are not. Maybe it's also the firmware and I guess the devices have waaaaaaay too much jitter. Also, as the electronics are inside the speakers they are probably victim to microphonics. Even with this amp technology. 
So I decided to get rid of them asap. And now my question to you all is this, especially to those who feel that the golds are great boom-boxes and not much more: is the expert pro line the same? What I mean is this: Is the expert pro line also overrated in reviews and sounds like this:
  • soulless
  • like plastic
  • slow transients
  • lack of micro-dynamics
  • mushy soundstage
  • mid-hole
  • ...
I still wish for a simple and convenient solution and not a chain of 6 components. I have a PS Audio Directstream. In contrast to the Phantoms, it is the single best audio component, I have ever heard or invested money in. I was close to selling it to get an expert pro but the Phantom experience discouraged me greatly. I live in a place where it's difficult to get a listen at a dealer for a live comparison. So what can you tell me? Is the expert pro line also just hype-train or does it actually sound like music.

For the speaker question my advice coming from 18 years of high-end experience:
  • Buy speakers that make as few mistakes as possible so they don't need to be DSP corrected.
  • Buy speakers with as few crossovers as possible.
  • Buy speakers with the largest radiation area possible (highs & mids also, not only bass).
  • Buy speakers with the lightest drivers possible (little mass).
  • Buy speakers that either don't have a box (open baffle) or a box that is absolutely vibration free if you don't fancy dipoles.
  • Buy speakers that are either Coaxes or Line Sources.
This actually simplifies high-end life as it narrows down choices extremely to:
  • Magnetostatic transducers: ribbons, air motion transformers. ("Piega Master One" was the best, I've ever heard).
  • Electrostats (full range having no crossovers at all).
To give a practial, not too expensive example: Connecting a "Hedd Type 30" (around 6K) active monitor directly to my DAC, completely obliterates the Phantoms. The Hedds are light years better even though the AMT in this config only serves as the tweeter and the mid-driver is a piston driver..."



I think a lot has to do with expectation and taste. I have a much more expensive system that also includes a PS Audio Directstream for a DAC with speakers that list for 10 times the cost of the phantom. Is it better than the phantom? No doubt. Slightly better air, more solid and palpable centerfill( though some of this has to do with my placement) and more organic sound. One has to remember that the phantoms cost as much as the Directstream itself does. I have  Golds in another location and when I listen to them I enjoy the experience immensely and do not feel deprived. In general, with most components that I have had, i find myself favoring music that plays to their strengths. I wouldn't shy away from listening to a string quartet with the Phantoms but it wouldn't be my go-to music.  I agree they do shine on electronic music. I am a sucker for solid bass, a huge soundstage, and speakers that become invisible. The Phantoms check all the boxes. I have had Martin Logan CLX's in the past. They did much wonderfully but in all the areas I just mentioned, the Phantoms have them beat. Not saying they are better, but they are more fun IMHO.
As to your question, I have heard the expert pro line with expensive high-end speakers, sounded good to me, but if you liked the PS Audio Directstream I suspect you will find it better but still wanting.
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#9
(02-Jan-2018, 22:03)etch Wrote: Anyone can give some insight if the expert pro line holds up to traditional high-end electronics?

Sure. The Pro amps are definitely high-end. Neutral, transparent, detailed. Very different from the Phantoms although it is impossible to compare the two directly. I also believe Kiis are more in the class of Pro amps, but Phantoms are about half the price (of Kiis) so very competitive. Careful matching of source etc. will help with Phantoms and 14 days of break in is far from enough, but as long as Devialet does not use the DSP power in Phantoms to further optimise sound quality it is a lost battle... at the moment.
Finding "natural" passive speakers in this class may not be the easiest task. I agree with you that magnestatics, ribbons or line sources is a good direction to look in.
*
Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#10
@etch - You are asking the question "Anyone can give some insight if the expert pro line holds up to traditional high-end electronics?" OK, a fair question, but I notice from your earlier posts that you have actually listened to a 1000 Pro. Was this not a good enough demonstration for you to establish your view on the Pro line? The point is that you refer yourself to the issue with a 'hype-train' around certain products, and trust me, I fully understand this point, so in reality the best thing always is to listen for yourself. I guess it might help if you give some insight into your experience with the 1000 Pro, what the demo was like, what you established from the demo, but also what you are still not sure about.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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