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Phantom Gold Confusion & Expert Pro Question
#21
A few points of clarification... The 5 Gold phantoms in this setup are configured as LF, RF, Ctr Mix, LR, RR as a multichannel stereo. The AVP decodes the source dolby/dts to PCM stereo which is all the Phantoms/Dialog can currently handle.... and while not true 5:1 is very immersive and impactful.

Phantom 5:1 is currently only available as a custom engineered solution using an OPPO magic box plus doodads at an expense of $25K US (estimate from devialet) or a Kludged DYI described in other threads.

The Levinson amplifiers are  huge model 33's (300lb each hidden in the backside equipment room, along with the Levinson center channel and rear channel amps, reference preamp, AD/DA convertors etc)... no one in their right mind should do this today, but it was state of the art in the mid '90's and has performed without failure since then...  But terrible price/performance in any era.

The Phantoms have been in multiple configurations in the room (lower, more forward, away from walls corners etc) , looking for the sweetest sound and soundstage, what you see in the pix is the current tweak. 

One observation is that they are not widely variable sonically within the same tight parameters that the Wilson's require, but I'm still tweaking, so may discover a placement for this room that gets them closer to the Wilson's.... which would be wonderful given the price/performance difference... and I'm hoping the Phantoms will make for an aesthetically more pleasing solution vis a vis other comments (smaller form factors, matte black, less visually imposing) for our new place in TN.
Levinson 33 amps, Wilson Grand Slamm S3's, Levinson 32 ref pre and ad/da, Basis Ovation and Rega 40 with JSpall custom tone arms, Lyra, Ortofon & Grado cartridges, Marantz AV 8801, PSAudio phono pre, Devialet Dialog w  5 Gold Phantoms, Wilson powered subwoofer, Watch center, Wilson surrounds, Kaleidescape Movie server, Crestron AV controller and switch, 120 MBS docsis3 modem, 20 MBS xdsl modem, Peplink balance 20 router, Ruckus 802.11ac Wave 2 WAPS plus multi Pakedge WAPs, 48 port POE gigabit switch, NetGear 8TB NAS, Amazon Fire,ROKU and Apple TV gen 4, 12 core Mac Pro, Macbook Air Retina, 65" and 50" Runco TV's. Blue sound node 2, OPPO BDP105D, DSpeaker AntiMode 2.0, Octava HDMI/Optical switch, cabling Nordost for analog, Cardas and wireworld for digital/optical.
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#22
No, I actually took it off topic with questions about his particular setup which had nothing to do with the thread topic. Although I would like to hear about it, I took it to another more appropriate thread on Dolby Dig 5.1.

Anyway, with regard to the original poster - to whom I bow as well, given his extensive background/efforts/experience - I’d be interested in his experience with more examples of audiophile speakers that meet his criteria but whose form actors will blend with non-dedicated urban listening rooms that must meet WAF. They may sound fantastic, but the HEDD’s are butt ugly. In a Pre-divorce life, I owned a Bohlender Graebener dx520 line source based 5.1 system, so I am in agreement with him on the virtues of planar/line source. I will also never forget the true amazement when I first ran across the original Martin Logan CLS and heard the electrostatic sound. But the entire category is tough on WAF. I have the Martin Logan AMT based and Monitor Audio Gold ribbon based bookshelves, so obviously agree with his philosophical points.
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#23
Ondastar,

Sorry, think our posts crossed in the air. Anyway...Thanks for the info. Sorry again for off topic but followup... so if fed PCM stereo the Dialogue can configure the 5 phantoms in those 5 diff positions? How does one adjust the front/rear levels? In your arrangement it seems that the rears being closer would be too loud?? And may I assume AVP is Audio Video Processor? What do you use in your setup there?
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#24
Hi snbeall,

First, Spark provides the configuration options you can choose based on the number of Phantoms, and the number of rooms/locations.

The AVP is a Marantz AVP8801.

So for audiophile head to head with the Wilsons I only use the FR/FL Phantoms in Stereo.

For the 5:1 simulated head to head, I use the full 7:1 Wilson setup- room corrected by the Marantz AVP8801 (with sources in dolby/dts 5:1 etc) vs the Phantoms in multichannel stereo room corrected by a DS Antimode 2.0- there are no discrete per channel volume controls, hence the placement fiddling with the Phantoms for acoustic balancing.

I'm in discussion with devialet to purchase the 5:1 OPPO magic box only, since I don't need their engineering services which is the largest component of the $25K custom install... until that happens it's Phantom simulation vs actual 7.1.
Levinson 33 amps, Wilson Grand Slamm S3's, Levinson 32 ref pre and ad/da, Basis Ovation and Rega 40 with JSpall custom tone arms, Lyra, Ortofon & Grado cartridges, Marantz AV 8801, PSAudio phono pre, Devialet Dialog w  5 Gold Phantoms, Wilson powered subwoofer, Watch center, Wilson surrounds, Kaleidescape Movie server, Crestron AV controller and switch, 120 MBS docsis3 modem, 20 MBS xdsl modem, Peplink balance 20 router, Ruckus 802.11ac Wave 2 WAPS plus multi Pakedge WAPs, 48 port POE gigabit switch, NetGear 8TB NAS, Amazon Fire,ROKU and Apple TV gen 4, 12 core Mac Pro, Macbook Air Retina, 65" and 50" Runco TV's. Blue sound node 2, OPPO BDP105D, DSpeaker AntiMode 2.0, Octava HDMI/Optical switch, cabling Nordost for analog, Cardas and wireworld for digital/optical.
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#25
You don't mention what is your source for  streaming to the Phantoms. What you describe sounds like low quality streaming and a bluetooth connection, not a wifi connection.
2 phantom Gold
2 phantom Reactor
Dione soundbar
Spotify connect 
Apple music
Audirvana 3.5.44 for Mac
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#26
Streaming from the AVP is HDMI to SPDIF optical to optical input on Dialog and Phantom. Streaming from Spark via Dialog is Ethernet. No bluetooth or WIFI.
Levinson 33 amps, Wilson Grand Slamm S3's, Levinson 32 ref pre and ad/da, Basis Ovation and Rega 40 with JSpall custom tone arms, Lyra, Ortofon & Grado cartridges, Marantz AV 8801, PSAudio phono pre, Devialet Dialog w  5 Gold Phantoms, Wilson powered subwoofer, Watch center, Wilson surrounds, Kaleidescape Movie server, Crestron AV controller and switch, 120 MBS docsis3 modem, 20 MBS xdsl modem, Peplink balance 20 router, Ruckus 802.11ac Wave 2 WAPS plus multi Pakedge WAPs, 48 port POE gigabit switch, NetGear 8TB NAS, Amazon Fire,ROKU and Apple TV gen 4, 12 core Mac Pro, Macbook Air Retina, 65" and 50" Runco TV's. Blue sound node 2, OPPO BDP105D, DSpeaker AntiMode 2.0, Octava HDMI/Optical switch, cabling Nordost for analog, Cardas and wireworld for digital/optical.
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#27
TY Ondastar for showing that tech specs are not everything.
it's just a guide line.
Etch opinion is more focused on tech but to me reading this is as cold as death with no listeners philosophy underlying the statements.
It's been a while that i've stopped following golden rules around mathematical expressions of what the sound should be.
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#28
(04-Jan-2018, 18:25)ondastar Wrote: etch opens a great door with his thread. Head to head system evaluations Phantom vs "the audiophile world". In the pix below you can see my evaluation setup. Wilson/Levinson's vs Gold Phantoms head to head (ignore the rear woofer on the couch). As a life long tweaker this is quite a journey. I have outboard eq and sig gen gear along with my ears (and those of some friends), and as with etch the most significant observation to date is that Phantom's are great for "LOUD" and AudioVideo, the Wilson's win on Jazz,symphonic, acoustic and vocal.
Ongoing fiddling with Phantom eq and time alignments continues.....
Beautiful room.
I notice you have the Phantoms wide and toed-in in the corners. Is that your preferred listening position or do you move them? I have seen them in corners in some stores so was just wondering.
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#29
Thanks stevec.... Position in pix is current placement, which is pretty good acoustically, and they have been lower, more forward, and varied toe-ins/outs. Higher is better in this room, as it's designed as a "golden trapagon", and trying to match the Wilson's time alignment.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...KYZCjlQbIo
Levinson 33 amps, Wilson Grand Slamm S3's, Levinson 32 ref pre and ad/da, Basis Ovation and Rega 40 with JSpall custom tone arms, Lyra, Ortofon & Grado cartridges, Marantz AV 8801, PSAudio phono pre, Devialet Dialog w  5 Gold Phantoms, Wilson powered subwoofer, Watch center, Wilson surrounds, Kaleidescape Movie server, Crestron AV controller and switch, 120 MBS docsis3 modem, 20 MBS xdsl modem, Peplink balance 20 router, Ruckus 802.11ac Wave 2 WAPS plus multi Pakedge WAPs, 48 port POE gigabit switch, NetGear 8TB NAS, Amazon Fire,ROKU and Apple TV gen 4, 12 core Mac Pro, Macbook Air Retina, 65" and 50" Runco TV's. Blue sound node 2, OPPO BDP105D, DSpeaker AntiMode 2.0, Octava HDMI/Optical switch, cabling Nordost for analog, Cardas and wireworld for digital/optical.
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#30
Thanks @ondastar. I haven't seen a trapdragon in the wild. I thought you had camera distortion but I can see it now. Hmm, might try my Phantoms further into the corners. Did you do any measurements or all by ear?

I think you need your own thread.
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