A Confused streaming system - Mutec / SOtM Ultra

[Axel]

@Confused
I’ve been reading this thread from the start and have found your posts very illuminating. At present, I have no way of feeding my Roon output through my Mutec and have decided to try the SoTM setup. The main reason I’d go for the SoTM over the uRendu is the ability to use an external clock.
A couple of questions: do you have the power switch on the USB link between the SoTM hub and the Mutec on or off? When ordering, do you have to specify 12V input, or is this user adjustable? What made you go for the Mutec REF 10 instead of the SoTM clock? Thank you for taking the time to do all the testing for us and posting such detailed results. :0)

BTW. Just a thought. I read on the SoTM site that there are silver and copper versions of the cables to supply power from the sPS-500 to the player and hub. To quote directly from the site:

“You can choose the cables among the standard type cable or Y type cable, copper or silver wires, and the length, the lenght choice could be made among 30cm, 50cm and 100cm.

Normally the copper wire sounds relatively calm and neat, and the silver wire is relatively open and more delicate.

Standard Copper cable : it brings a clean sound with musical nuance without having any distortion.
Stranded 7N UPOCC silver cable :Compared with copper wires, it brings more detailed and dynamic scenes, and brings the distinctive bright and precise sound propensity of silver wires.
Stranded 7N UPOCC Copper cable :Compared with the standard copper wire and silver wire, the sound character is middle of their propensities, it bring very detailed musical nuance.
Depending on which dc cable is used, it effects sound in your system hugely, so select the proper dc cable for your system according to your sound taste.”

Might this have a bearing on your glassy top end?

[thumb5]

@Confused - one quick question I meant to ask earlier: what's the vertical scale (dB/division) for the frequency response graph in post 101? (Sorry if I overlooked that somewhere.)

[Confused]

@Confused - one quick question I meant to ask earlier: what's the vertical scale (dB/division) for the frequency response graph in post 101?  (Sorry if I overlooked that somewhere.)

If I recall correctly it is 2dB per division.  I had used 1/12 smoothing and zoomed in on the HF region to try indicate just how close the frequency curves are between the mR and SOtM options.

[Confused]

@Confused
I’ve been reading this thread from the start and have found your posts very illuminating. At present, I have no way of feeding my Roon output through my Mutec and have decided to try the SoTM setup. The main reason I’d go for the SoTM over the uRendu is the ability to use an external clock.
A couple of questions: do you have the power switch on the USB link between the SoTM hub and the Mutec on or off? When ordering, do you have to specify 12V input, or is this user adjustable? What made you go for the Mutec REF 10 instead of the SoTM clock? Thank you for taking the time to do all the testing for us and posting such detailed results. :0)

BTW. Just a thought.  I read on the SoTM site that there are silver and copper versions of the  cables to supply power from the sPS-500 to the player and hub. To quote directly from the site:

“You can choose the cables among the standard type cable or Y type cable, copper or silver wires, and the length, the lenght choice could be made among 30cm, 50cm and 100cm.

Normally the copper wire sounds relatively calm and neat, and the silver wire is relatively open and more delicate.

Standard Copper cable : it brings a clean sound with musical nuance without having any distortion.
Stranded 7N UPOCC silver cable :Compared with copper wires, it brings more detailed and dynamic scenes, and brings the distinctive bright and precise sound propensity of silver wires.
Stranded 7N UPOCC Copper cable :Compared with the standard copper wire and silver wire, the sound character is middle of their propensities, it bring very detailed musical nuance.
Depending on which dc cable is used, it effects sound in your system hugely, so select the proper dc cable for your system according to your sound taste.”

Might this have a bearing on your glassy top end?

Yes, you need to have power switch on for the feed to the Mutec MC3+USB, the Mutec needs this.

You can specify the voltage you prefer when ordering.  You can adjust the voltage yourself, but I understand SOtM do not encourage this and it may affect warranty.  The voltage is dealer adjustable though.  Curiously, May from SOtM advised me that the 12v units can be run on 9v.  When I get some time I will try this myself and see if it makes any difference.

The Mutec and SOtM clocks have very similar specification in terms of jitter / phase noise etc.  The main difference is the Mutec is square wave and the SOtM is sine wave.  Both companies claim there way is best, but on balance the square wave option looks best for performance, you just need to be more careful with the cable spec.  The REF10 is also cheaper when you consider that it has a built in high quality LPSU.  Also, the Mutec has more clock connections, both 50 ohm and 75 ohm, and these are easy to turn on or off at the touch of a button. I do not think anyone has yet tried the Mutec and SOtM clocks to back, so it remains to be seen if one emerges as king, personally I doubt there will be much in it.  The main reason I went for the Mutec is because it's primary function is to clock the MC3+USB, and the REF10 is specifically designed for this.  One other thing, the REF10 is a bit utilitarian but it does feel heavy and well built, I like it.  The SOtM kit is a bit cheap and cheerful in comparison, the case looks cheap, the LED lights look flimsy, the little stuck on feet fall off, this kind of thing.  The Mutec REF10 looks like it will last forever.

I have the standard copper Y cable.

[Axel]

@Confused
I’ve been reading this thread from the start and have found your posts very illuminating. At present, I have no way of feeding my Roon output through my Mutec and have decided to try the SoTM setup. The main reason I’d go for the SoTM over the uRendu is the ability to use an external clock.
A couple of questions: do you have the power switch on the USB link between the SoTM hub and the Mutec on or off? When ordering, do you have to specify 12V input, or is this user adjustable? What made you go for the Mutec REF 10 instead of the SoTM clock? Thank you for taking the time to do all the testing for us and posting such detailed results. :0)

BTW. Just a thought.  I read on the SoTM site that there are silver and copper versions of the  cables to supply power from the sPS-500 to the player and hub. To quote directly from the site:

“You can choose the cables among the standard type cable or Y type cable, copper or silver wires, and the length, the lenght choice could be made among 30cm, 50cm and 100cm.

Normally the copper wire sounds relatively calm and neat, and the silver wire is relatively open and more delicate.

Standard Copper cable : it brings a clean sound with musical nuance without having any distortion.
Stranded 7N UPOCC silver cable :Compared with copper wires, it brings more detailed and dynamic scenes, and brings the distinctive bright and precise sound propensity of silver wires.
Stranded 7N UPOCC Copper cable :Compared with the standard copper wire and silver wire, the sound character is middle of their propensities, it bring very detailed musical nuance.
Depending on which dc cable is used, it effects sound in your system hugely, so select the proper dc cable for your system according to your sound taste.”

Might this have a bearing on your glassy top end?

Yes, you need to have power switch on for the feed to the Mutec MC3+USB, the Mutec needs this.

You can specify the voltage you prefer when ordering.  You can adjust the voltage yourself, but I understand SOtM do not encourage this and it may affect warranty.  The voltage is dealer adjustable though.  Curiously, May from SOtM advised me that the 12v units can be run on 9v.  When I get some time I will try this myself and see if it makes any difference.

The Mutec and SOtM clocks have very similar specification in terms of jitter / phase noise etc.  The main difference is the Mutec is square wave and the SOtM is sine wave.  Both companies claim there way is best, but on balance the square wave option looks best for performance, you just need to be more careful with the cable spec.  The REF10 is also cheaper when you consider that it has a built in high quality LPSU.  Also, the Mutec has more clock connections, both 50 ohm and 75 ohm, and these are easy to turn on or off at the touch of a button. I do not think anyone has yet tried the Mutec and SOtM clocks to back, so it remains to be seen if one emerges as king, personally I doubt there will be much in it.  The main reason I went for the Mutec is because it's primary function is to clock the MC3+USB, and the REF10 is specifically designed for this.  One other thing, the REF10 is a bit utilitarian but it does feel heavy and well built, I like it.  The SOtM kit is a bit cheap and cheerful in comparison, the case looks cheap, the LED lights look flimsy, the little stuck on feet fall off, this kind of thing.  The Mutec REF10 looks like it will last forever.

I have the standard copper Y cable.

That’s great. Thanks for the info.
Edit: I’ve just pulled the trigger on the SoTM bundle, with 50 Ohm inputs and 12V power. Sod the expense! :0)

[zdenes]

@Confused We may be just months apart, I also turned 50 this winter.

Anyway, the high-frequency forwardness of the SOtM system may well be (apart from the power supply) due to some cables. I have tried a few USB cables and the most relaxing was the Curious USB which I use now. Currently borrowing a 50cm Wireworld Platinum 7 which costs more than twice. The treble is too forward with this cable and while it could be said that it is more revealing, it was a little distracting too. I also sold my Crystal Cable speaker cables as they were too aggressive with the Devialet and my YG Acoustic speakers whereas they were perfect with my ProAC speakers. I'm not sure that cables can really 'make or break a system' but these nuance differences can result in a less or more satisfactory listening experience.

@IanG-UK I am sorry Ian that Mutec didn't contact you. I feel a little guilty since I talked you into it in Munich and I was there when you agreed with them and they took your details. I know they had big success at the show with the Ref10 and were slow to catch up with orders.

At the same time, I must say that the Ref10 is the heart of my system now, almost literally as it gives the beat to several devices - I wouldn't call it peripheral. In fact, if I was forced to name components one-by-one that I would have to replace in my system, the Ref10 would be the last to go. When I bought the Devialet, I thought it was very good but not necessarily overall better than my previous separate 5-6 box system. Certainly more pleasing to look at and more convenient to use. The Ref10 brought so much realism to the sound that I never thought would be possible in a living room environment. It is unfortunate that DACs that except the 10mHz reference clock are not too many, otherwise I would even consider replacing the Devialet (which I would miss dearly for its esthetics and versatility).

@yabaVR Optimising Windows can reduce unwanted noise in the system, I have friends who swear by it. I asked both the developer of HQPlayer and SOtM what optimisation they recommend. Both said that they don't think it will make a difference in this network streaming that we are doing with the SMS-200ulta + HQplayer NAA. They themselves don't use any such optimisation. The network isolates this noise ideally, but you have to be careful with that. The SMS-200ultra is not galvanically isolated and neither are D-Link switches, so certain Ethernet cables are not suitable to use (mostly audiophile cables actually). Also, the power supply on the switch makes a difference. For me, full optical isolation between the SOtM modified switch and the SMS-200ultra gave the best result so far, somewhat better than my Acoustic Revive RLI-1 isolators. Soon I will have a chance to test these against a Pink Faun isolator which is also said to be good. Inherent in the optical isolation, noise cannot pass through, so I didn't hear any difference when I put the switching power supply back on the switch but it is important to use a good LPS on the second optical converter (which converts it back to Ethernet). It seems that new SOtM switch will have optical ports too, so that can be very useful.

[ogs]

@Confused I've been thinking about the treble issue. I do not have access to Blades, but I had the Q300 for some years. Similar to the Blade in that it is the 'new' design where KEF avoids amplitude irregularities from the tweeter by shaping the mid-cone. On some material I remember I found the treble a bit 'splashy'. It wasn't too much of it, just a 'colouration' some times. My conclusion at the time was that I was hearing diffraction. Very well controlled and all that, but still. There is a lot of hard surface in front of the tweeter and the treble energy is bound to 'bounce around' a bit. The KEF engineers( Mark Dodd must be mentioned here) have done a heroic job when they created the new Uni-Q driver, but if one looks at other designs with separate tweeters you often find diffraction damping felt around the tweeter cone (a good example here is the Avalon Idea - see the HiFiCritic review). I am not saying this is THE reason, but it may well be part of it in some instances.

[yabaVR]

@yabaVR Optimising Windows can reduce unwanted noise in the system, I have friends who swear by it. I asked both the developer of HQPlayer and SOtM what optimisation they recommend. Both said that they don't think it will make a difference in this network streaming that we are doing with the SMS-200ulta + HQplayer NAA. They themselves don't use any such optimisation. The network isolates this noise ideally, but you have to be careful with that. The SMS-200ultra is not galvanically isolated and neither are D-Link switches, so certain Ethernet cables are not suitable to use (mostly audiophile cables actually). Also, the power supply on the switch makes a difference. For me, full optical isolation between the SOtM modified switch and the SMS-200ultra gave the best result so far, somewhat better than my Acoustic Revive RLI-1 isolators. Soon I will have a chance to test these against a Pink Faun isolator which is also said to be good. Inherent in the optical isolation, noise cannot pass through, so I didn't hear any difference when I put the switching power supply back on the switch but it is important to use a good LPS on the second optical converter (which converts it back to Ethernet). It seems that new SOtM switch will have optical ports too, so that can be very useful.

@zdenes 
As I discribed in a post before it's not about noise leaving the PC over ethernet but what 'noise' is doing to the audio signal before leaving the PC over ethernet. This noise generates jitter after the bit perfect stream left Roon (or any player) which then is inherent in the audio signal and can not be removed. It's like the jitter produced during a recording. It's 'bound' to the signal since then and cannot be removed either.
Sometimes makes me wonder what developer 'think'. Just a hint why you may achieve better sound with a optimized PC is the fact that many users of Audiophile Optimizer use a Dual PC Setup with a Control PC and a Steaming PC. All over ethernet and both fully optimized by software. Maybe worth a try. You can actually try it a short and free way with 'Fidelizer'. You can install it boot your PC with Fidelizer Optimizations and you can hear if it makes a difference to your sound over ethernet. You see in my signature that I've gone that way and I must say the difference in sound is 'Night and Day' in my USB driven system.
It gives such an amount of precision and transparency to my system that I can not listen without it. Actually the optimized PC is so good that it shows clearly how much better USB performs compared to ethernet. The musik over USB is more real, more involving, more of everything (think of your Ref10).

gui

[Confused]

@yabaVR Optimising Windows can reduce unwanted noise in the system, I have friends who swear by it. I asked both the developer of HQPlayer and SOtM what optimisation they recommend. Both said that they don't think it will make a difference in this network streaming that we are doing with the SMS-200ulta + HQplayer NAA. They themselves don't use any such optimisation. The network isolates this noise ideally, but you have to be careful with that. The SMS-200ultra is not galvanically isolated and neither are D-Link switches, so certain Ethernet cables are not suitable to use (mostly audiophile cables actually). Also, the power supply on the switch makes a difference. For me, full optical isolation between the SOtM modified switch and the SMS-200ultra gave the best result so far, somewhat better than my Acoustic Revive RLI-1 isolators. Soon I will have a chance to test these against a Pink Faun isolator which is also said to be good. Inherent in the optical isolation, noise cannot pass through, so I didn't hear any difference when I put the switching power supply back on the switch but it is important to use a good LPS on the second optical converter (which converts it back to Ethernet). It seems that new SOtM switch will have optical ports too, so that can be very useful.

@zdenes 
As I discribed in a post before it's not about noise leaving the PC over ethernet but what 'noise' is doing to the audio signal before leaving the PC over ethernet. This noise generates jitter after the bit perfect stream left Roon (or any player) which then is inherent in the audio signal and can not be removed. It's like the jitter produced during a recording. It's 'bound' to the signal since then and cannot be removed either.
Sometimes makes me wonder what developer 'think'. Just a hint why you may achieve better sound with a optimized PC is the fact that many users of Audiophile Optimizer use a Dual PC Setup with a Control PC and a Steaming PC. All over ethernet and both fully optimized by software. Maybe worth a try. You can actually try it a short and free way with 'Fidelizer'. You can install it boot your PC with Fidelizer Optimizations and you can hear if it makes a difference to your sound over ethernet. You see in my signature that I've gone that way and I must say the difference in sound is 'Night and Day' in my USB driven system.
It gives such an amount of precision and transparency to my system that I can not listen without it. Actually the optimized PC is so good that it shows clearly how much better USB performs compared to ethernet. The musik over USB is more real, more involving, more of everything (think of your Ref10).

gui

There is some interesting information here in terms of jitter and audio clock hierarchy when using Roon RAAT via Ethernet. 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/raat-an...rship/6915

[thumb5]

Thanks for posting that, @Confused.  Good to see Brian Luczkiewicz's (Roon) clear and comprehensive explanations in posts 38 and 41 of that thread, and also Andrew P's (of dCS) in posts 48 and 53.  (For reference, I've copied those links into the thread about jitter on USB and Ethernet).