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Discipline In Cable Selection?
#1
Discipline In Cable Selection?

This forum, in common with pretty much all others, has members who voice an opinion “cable A is better than cable B” or who ask “is cable A better than cable B?”; usually followed by comments of mild agreement or mild disagreement or “try it on loan”; yet at the other end of the spectrum we never see randomised double blind tests proving, or otherwise, that cable A can be identified against cable B on a statistically significant basis. Not necessarily better or worse, but just different. Perhaps manufacturers run these tests but are minded not to divulge the results? And those experiments are probably far too onerous for hobbyist listeners.

Luckily, on this forum, the debate on cable rarely gets out of hand or even entrenched. But if, for example, you looks at WhatsBestForum, loudspeaker cables suitable to mate with very expensive loudspeakers have, themselves, to be very expensive even to enter the debate. I remember once mischievously suggesting that US owners of a certain very expensive Wilson or Magico loudspeaker should try the DNM cable made here in the UK (which they would have never heard of but could obtain) - made by a very distinguished engineer  but priced at only £33 per stereo metre. I guess as soon as forum participants saw the price, that idea was rejected. The post elicited no replies.

Rarely has there been any process which seeks to narrow the gap between these subjective and objective approaches and it is perhaps only now, that I have what I hope will be a stable cable selection, that have I thought about the criteria I would use were I going through the process again. A possible process of elimination which leaves a small shortlist, rather than one which seeks to select “the best”.

So here are my selection or elimination criteria:

1 the manufacturer needs to have a credible track record in the area over a number of years.

2 the business is ideally lead by the design engineer who also has a material stake in the business and is clearly a “hands on” guy.

3 the manufacturer makes infrequent product changes.

4 specific product ranges are short - maybe no more than four interconnects, etc.

5 the marketing from the manufacturer and the distributor uses no b***shit (eg Mk 2 trounces Mk 1 which was, last year, the best thing since sliced bread) and/or runs no demonstrations which seek to lead listeners towards the desired outcome.

6 the manufacturer participates directly on a forum.

7 the supply chain is short or the perceived mark up sensible: for example, if the production price is 100 (pre-profit) from the manufacturer and then each of the manufacturer and distributor and retailer wants 30%, 30% and 40% of their price to be profit, then the price to the customer ends up at 340 and it becomes hard to warrant the 240 (or 70%) added value - why have three in the chain when not all add value? And I am lead to believe that, in the cable market, some of these percentages are even higher.

8 the manufacturer is also engaged in the supply of another industry which gives credibility to the engineering input.

9 the manufacturer will take back cables for modification.

I would then use an idea first proposed by Julian Musgrave in an article for HiFiCritic. Specifically, identify ones “Distortion Profile”. Namely define the three most important sound qualities you must have and the three most important sound qualities you must avoid. You cannot use specifications, nor can the qualities be vague, and the qualities cannot be antonyms of one another.

This exercise is a tough one and I ended up with:
- must have:        transparency, width, depth
- must avoid:      forwardness, bass slam, treble drive

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Innuos Statement 2TB SSD with Next-Gen PSU (with Roon lifetime)
MacBook Pro (with Air)
Draytek Vigor 2860v-Plus/Devialet Original d'Atelier CI Nos. 54A&B/Magico M3 pair
Shunyata cables (digital/interconnect/loudspeaker/power)/Shunyata power units (Triton/Typhon)

 Dialog/Phantom Gold/Tree pair
Missing Link cables (power)
England
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#2
Fair points Ian, I would abide to most of these but I have a feeling that meeting these criteria is hard, to say the least. Especially considering that many brand sell from power cables to USB through clock and hdmi cables, etc. all which have their own design and engineering needs (especially etc. ) Joke aside, can you name a few brands that meet your criteria? And perhaps name one or two that IYO are at the other end of these set of criteria?

Zoltan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Win10/HQPlayer / Roon - Uptone Audio Etherregen switch / SOtM-SMS-200 ultra with clock input - Mutec REF 10 clock for the switch and the streamer - Denafrips GAIA DCC - Devialet D800 - YG Acoustics Carmel - Dual Elac SUB-2090 
power supplies: Uptone JS-2, SOtM SPS-500
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#3
I agree with assessment of cable parameters: cable should transmit the signal as unaltered as possible and never be used to correct equipment or room acoustics.
The price and performance of a lot cables on the market has no relationship to materials, research and construction only to marketing. I started with comparing a lot of cables at quite different price points and after several purchases I regretted longterm I started to DIY most of my cables (except for USB were I completely failed).
One example is speaker cables. I built some using a silver ribbon slightly twisted inserted in a teflon tube (so mostly air as a dielectric). They sound very coherent in the upper base to highs with very good transparency and very detailed and stable soundstage but they are under presenting the low frequencies (I guess just to much resistance) . That does not matter for me as I do active crossover and separate amps.
I use mono amps for my woofers and so the are only 0.5m long Milliot braid cables made from 1mm AgAu wire. They give quite good bass extension and very low noise but maybe higher gauge would be even more beneficial.
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#4
(30-Mar-2018, 22:14)zdenes Wrote: Fair points Ian, I would abide to most of these but I have a feeling that meeting these criteria is hard, to say the least. Especially considering that many brand sell from power cables to USB through clock and hdmi cables, etc. all which have their own design and engineering needs (especially etc. ) Joke aside, can you name a few brands that meet your criteria? And perhaps name one or two that IYO are at the other end of these set of criteria?

Zoltan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'll send you a private note on my views on the good and the less good!
Innuos Statement 2TB SSD with Next-Gen PSU (with Roon lifetime)
MacBook Pro (with Air)
Draytek Vigor 2860v-Plus/Devialet Original d'Atelier CI Nos. 54A&B/Magico M3 pair
Shunyata cables (digital/interconnect/loudspeaker/power)/Shunyata power units (Triton/Typhon)

 Dialog/Phantom Gold/Tree pair
Missing Link cables (power)
England
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#5
I will repeat myself: ABX is your best wallet friend when it comes to cables.

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#6
ABX? Not sure what this stands for and now on two threads
Devialet 200 -- Roon Nucleus-- Sonus Faber Olympica 2 -- Tellurium Q Black Speaker Cables --
Chord Qutest -- Niimbus US5 Pro Headphone amp —HifiMan HEK, Abyss 1266TC
Newcastle upon Tyne, England
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#7
It does seem odd that there doesn't seem to be any attempt to measure cables qualitavely, even by the obvious measures of resistance, inductance and capacitance for analogue cables. These may not have a particular use in terms of sound quality but I'm willing to bet at least one of those parameters can explain why, for instance, a cable may sound "dark" or "bright".
I buy electric guitar cables from time to time and have noticed the capacitance is increasingly being used by manufacturers as a guide to how it'll sound  - low capacitance tends to increase harmonics which can sound quite pleasing.
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#8
(31-Mar-2018, 08:29)Womaz Wrote: ABX? Not sure what this stands for and now on two threads

ABX is a double blind method, allowing you to eliminate the expectation bias when wanting to find if there is an objective difference between A and B.

Is works as follow: you what what A is, what B is but X is randomly selected to be A or B.

So for each iteration you want to determine is X is A or if X is B. you can switch between A, B and X at your leisure.

Iterate enough time to get a statistical significance and it will tell you whether or not you can objectively distinguish between A and B.

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#9
@Jean-Marie thanks for the detailed explanation.
Devialet 200 -- Roon Nucleus-- Sonus Faber Olympica 2 -- Tellurium Q Black Speaker Cables --
Chord Qutest -- Niimbus US5 Pro Headphone amp —HifiMan HEK, Abyss 1266TC
Newcastle upon Tyne, England
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#10
(31-Mar-2018, 09:57)Womaz Wrote: @Jean-Marie thanks for the detailed explanation.

You are welcome. 

One additional point is that of course A and B need to be level matched, to at least 0.5 dB and preferably 0.1 dB

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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