250 vs 800 vs The Best

[kw1373]

Hi all

I was referred here from another forum.

I don't see a clear answer to my question tho. So I am posting it in this new thread.

History

I owned some mid-level Naim separates running high end speakers (Tidal Piano Diacera). Of course not a good match, with speakers under utilized.

I trialed at the time Devialet 170 then 250. 170 was not a clear step up from Naim but 250 was.

250 exhibited all the strength of 170 (clarity, power, bass control) without the obvious weaknesses of 170 (thin and somewhat bland).

So I went with 250.

Past few weeks

Having had the amp for a while, I know this is not the ultimate. The sound with this combo is below some of the best I had heard (within reasonable price). While I listen to music frequently, over time enjoyment faded somewhat.

E.g. one of the best sounding combo I heard ran a McIntosh monobloc 1Kw into similar speakers, with McIntosh pre and Esoteric CDP. That sound was quite unbelievable.

So 2 weeks ago I asked my Tidal dealer to bring Tidal amps to my house for a demo. Prisma pre and Impulse Monoblocs (overall close to their top combo).

Gap

The performances I have to say almost a magnitude difference, in terms of enjoyment.

Bass especially was amazing. Surreal texture. Punchy. High was no less impressive than 250, and if anything even clearer. Tremendous warmth like tube.

Question

The Tidal gears awfully expensive and huge (relatively). I would hate to fork out that money and even more to find space for those big boxes and cables.

So if 250 x 2 Devialet (or they call it 800?) is a big step up from 250, I would like to move in that direction. I don't think it would be possible for 800 to close the gap, but if small enough could settle....I think.

Could I ask feedback on 800 over 250 please? I think I only saw a couple of short comments about this comparison. I would be grateful if anyone could share more insights.

Thanks
KW

[Vivialet]

not sure how many hours your Devialet has now. Mine need several month to reach the final performance. And as soon as SAM is available for your speakers the bass will improve a lot. At least it did for my speakers.
A second Devialet will give you more control and punch and also sounds clearer, but the sound signature will not really change. I do not regret buying a second 250. It gives you the feeling of endless power.
Which speakers do you have ?

[kw1373]

Hi Vivialet

My 250 has months of usage already.

My speakers are Tidal Piano (soon to be upgraded to Tidal Contriva).

A rough and tough question, if 250 is say 85 in performance, and the best amps you've heard is 100, where will 800 and SAM take you?

Thanks
KW

[Rufus McDufus]

If you thought the 170 was thin-sounding then I suspect it was under-driving the speakers. This may mean even a 250 isn't enough so it's very possible an 800 will sound a lot better, notwithstanding the improvement you'll gain from running one amp per speaker.

[Vivialet]

Hi Vivialet

My 250 has months of usage already.

My speakers are Tidal Piano (soon to be upgraded to Tidal Contriva).

A rough and tough question, if 250 is say 85 in performance, and the best amps you've heard is 100, where will 800 and SAM take you?

Thanks
KW

The 800 is the best Amp I have ever heard, a single 250 is maybe 90%. All other Amps I have heard in my room was below 85%. But I never tried Amps that cost >20000€ only for the power amp. Too big and too expensive.
And you have a good chance to get SAM for your Tidals. I don't believe that any amp is better than Devialet with SAM.

[Confused]

A year ago, I had a dealer demo of the 240 vs the 500, with my chosen speakers, KEF Blades. At the time I thought that there was indeed an improvement with the 500, but I thought it was quite small and not worth the considerable extra cost, so I bought a 240. One year on, and my dealer offered a loan 250 for a weekend, this was towards the end of the 10% discount offer Devialet were making for the slave.

On the Saturday with the loan slave, I made up a 3 hour playlist of tracks, the plan was to spend Saturday listening to the 800 with this playlist, making listening notes. Then on Sunday, re listen on the 800 to all the tracks with interesting listening notes, then revert back to the 250 for comparison, playing the full playlist. Having made this plan my expectation was that I would again just hear a very small difference and would not be buying.

About 15 minutes through the playlist on the Saturday with the 800, I was beginning to think, this sounds superb! I did wonder if I was kidding myself (auditions like this mess with your mind), but I had more or less made my mind up to buy the slave there and then. Anyway, I continued listening to the entire playlist, revisited about 40 minutes of tracks with the 800 on Sunday, then listened to the entire 3 hour playlist again back with the 250. The difference was clear, the 800 was better. Overall it just sounded more effortless, and to me sounds like it has a much higher definition, higher resolution sound, more natural, or less "grain" as some would say. I took a lot of trouble doing the comparison, and for me I can state that yes, the 800 was a clear step up. As an example, when listening to one track on the 800, I made a listening note regarding the female vocal sounding very special. Back with the 250, I couldn't work out why I thought it was so special before. There were some qualative points to note as well, one track with the 800 was causing an item of wooden furniture at the back of the room to resonate, this didn't occur with the 250! So something was different. People use many strange terms to describe improvements in sound quality (to this day I have no idea what "more air between notes" actually means), but in summary, the 800 is more natural, effortless, higher resolution and sounds "fuller", magnificent sounding music sounds more magnificent and so on. One point to note, the key to good hi fi is matching the speaker with the amplifier, so the delta between a 250 and 800 could vary enormously between different speakers. I can only really comment for the 800 with KEF Blades.

The problem is, you mention "Tremendous warmth like tube", now I suspect that going to an 800 might go a small way to filling this gap with maybe slightly fuller bass, but tube like warmth? No, probably not.

In a way it looks like you have answered your own question. You like the sound of the Tidal and the McIntosh, so it's a question of how much cash you want to spend, and you view on lots of big boxes. (very nice looking big boxes, I would say) I'm not sure that the Devialet will provide the "warmth" you are after. The 800 will perhaps move you closer? As ever it is a case of trying a home demo, you might find the 800 fills the gap, you might find that to your ears it makes little difference, who knows? Worth a home demo of the 800 I would say, but reading between the lines of your original post, perhaps something from the McIntosh range might suit you best for the money?

[kw1373]

Hi Confused

Thanks for your great reply.

Yes I am also afriad of the answer. Likely my ears are not Devialet oriented. Lol. My already significant investment in it, and even more the prospect of shelling out massive sums for the sound i truly want plus messy cables and enormous space that i thought Devialet had wonderfully solved, are daunting should i opt out.

However i have not given up hopes entirely. I agree with u and have already asked for a home demo of a second 250 unit. Likely next week.

I am also keen to try SAM. But it might take a long time before my speakers are SAM ready. Tidal Piano or Tidal Contriva are held in few hands and those that have them are likely to run them using other more conventional amps. The few things i read about it suggests massive improvement, to perhaps even replicate some of the amazing sound that Tidal amps were able to extract from Tidal speakers

Will share my experience in due course. Thanks again for your thoughts.

I would be keen to read others thoughts too if available.

KW

[GuillaumeB]

Hi KW,

Can you give us details of the rest of your setup? Are you streaming via AIR for example?

Over the past year I've carried out a lot of tweaks to my 800 and feel that I have taken it to a completely new level SQ-wise, there is absolutely no way I could go back to how it sounded before.

To give you some perspective I recently borrowed a Vitus SIA-025 amplifier with a Vitus MPD-201 DAC for an extended home dem (so well over £50k of electronics) . Whilst I really enjoyed the dense (warmish) soundstage that the Vitus Class A electronics give you, not to mention the musicality of the system in the end I started to miss my Devialet again. I think my souped up 800 can take one most über high end offerings now. My mantra is "everything matters" and even if individual tweaks make a tiny amount of difference in the end they all add up.

Guillaume

[Kunter]

Hi.
I also suggest careful attention to the "habitat" of the D250 or D800 before you make your final decision...

Devialet's response really well to:
- Power cables and careful conditioning
- Racks (what they sit on)
- How you feed them (all the cables putting music in)
- Grounding enhancements (this is the tricky bit with the biggest effects)
etc, etc.

I ended up spending a fortune on these, but I am really happy with these bathroom scales. And yes I compared them to Tidal's top end amps with Tidal big speakers at a friends house (dont remember the exact models but speakers were really big) and Devialet (single D-Premier then) blew away the Tidal electronics single handedly...

All of the above matters a lot... There are times when I tend to wander around for a better overall sound... I have crazy friends around with uber systems that I have a chance to listen to in their own setups... and always I run happily back to my setup...

And yes, D800 is a big leap forward with the right environment from the D250. Right now, Avishai Cohen is singing to me so beautifuly...

Good luck with your quest...

Kunter

[GuillaumeB]

Hi.
I also suggest careful attention to the "habitat" of the D250 or D800 before you make your final decision...

Devialet's response really well to:
- Power cables and careful conditioning
- Racks (what they sit on)
- How you feed them (all the cables putting music in)
- Grounding enhancements (this is the tricky bit with the biggest effects)
etc, etc.

I ended up spending a fortune on these, but I am really happy with these bathroom scales. And yes I compared them to Tidal's top end amps with Tidal big speakers at a friends house (dont remember the exact models but speakers were really big) and Devialet (single D-Premier then) blew away the Tidal electronics single handedly...

All of the above matters a lot... There are times when I tend to wander around for a better overall sound... I have crazy friends around with uber systems that I have a chance to listen to in their own setups... and always I run happily back to my setup...

And yes, D800 is a big leap forward with the right environment from the D250. Right now, Avishai Cohen is singing to me so beautifuly...

Good luck with your quest...

Kunter

Great post!

Guillaume