250 vs 800 vs The Best

[Confused]

Strangely, I have done none of the tweaks Guillaume has suggested, and I love my D800!

It's not a simple case of everything is fantastic though, I've had an interesting night of listening, the same thing happened on two albums, one track sounded simply amazing, a song I know well but it sounded like a new version with the musicians in the room, so much more there. Another track on each album, sounded thin, distorted, generally poor quality. For me, no problem, I am simply discovering how the master sounds, it's a bit of an adventure. Buts that's Devialet, accurate, detailed, maybe ruthless. Warm, no. Some other stuff I listened to tonight I think was mixed warm, and it sounded lush. I'm happy. I was thinking that my old system cost about a fifth of the price of my current one, and it had the advantage that almost everything sounded at least ok. But re listening to everything with the Devialet is an adventure and fascinating, I wouldn't want warm, but each to his own!

I'm looking forward to following a few of Mr G's tweets, I hope the best is yet to come!

---

Will share my experience in due course.

KW

Yes, please do, it will be fascinating to hear what you conclude For me, I love the look of McIntosh kit, I wish I had the cash for Dev and Mac!

[GuillaumeB]

New review of Tidal stuff on Part Time Audiophile:

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/11/29...dspeakers/

Looks like good stuff!

Guillaume

[kw1373]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies, which nudged me to get the home demo sooner than later. Took a while to get hold of the second unit but finally hv it at home tonight.

After an hour and a half, which is nothing more than first impression, my thoughts are:

Hearing more than before. Little things that were background and unnoticed stand out more. Consistently so across many tracks.

More organic sounding, more natural. Instruments sound more real.

Bass hits harder, more fun.

Not all is better tho. Some tracks more grating. High really annoying. Have to skip track.

Old unit as master. New unit as slave.

Will post more over the next few days.

[Teddy]

Hi KW,

I feel that you probably are looking for more warmth that the devialet may be delivering but that you are still trying to see if you can get a compromise through upgrading the 250 to 800.

On that level I think I would second Confused's thoughts on the fact that the dual mono can be night and day better than the stereo version.

Of course I strongly suspect that it depends on the association but my listening sessions with D-Premier (s) / Raidho D1 and D2 had me experience such a difference that now that I am considering again Devialet (for WAF reasons) I am only considering a D400 or D800.

To me, even on the (already burnt-in) D1, with one D-Premier it lacked punch in the bass, imaging was "small" and timbres seemed a little off (not sure how to describe the feeling) and I would not have considered it for that price.
Going dual mono and doubling the price made it something I could consider at that new price point with so much more control, detail, imaging, depth and better timbres.

However (at least at the time of the D-premier), to me warmth was not part of the characteristics of the amp. When I tried the radio d2 at home with my spectral, I felt that it was warmer (actually rather silkier and more fluid than what I had experienced with the devialet at the dealer's, but it felt warmer if only for that reason). And I don't think many people would consider the spectral to be that warm.

I am pretty sure you will enjoy the home trial, just keep in mind whether this is something you can live with with no regrets or no. If you end up saving a little now but then want to change in 2 or 3 years, maybe you'll have to consider something else (but then you'll have enjoyed the ride).

I have however been told that the later versions of the Devialet were warmer than the previous one and I have thus some listening sessions planned beg of next year. So hopefully there's still some hope.

Let us know how it goes and have a nice listening.

[DBdub]

Hi all

I was referred here from another forum.

I don't see a clear answer to my question tho. So I am posting it in this new thread.

History

I owned some mid-level Naim separates running high end speakers (Tidal Piano Diacera). Of course not a good match, with speakers under utilized.

I trialed at the time Devialet 170 then 250. 170 was not a clear step up from Naim but 250 was.

250 exhibited all the strength of 170 (clarity, power, bass control) without the obvious weaknesses of 170 (thin and somewhat bland).

So I went with 250.

Past few weeks

Having had the amp for a while, I know this is not the ultimate. The sound with this combo is below some of the best I had heard (within reasonable price). While I listen to music frequently, over time enjoyment faded somewhat.

E.g. one of the best sounding combo I heard ran a McIntosh monobloc 1Kw into similar speakers, with McIntosh pre and Esoteric CDP. That sound was quite unbelievable.

So 2 weeks ago I asked my Tidal dealer to bring Tidal amps to my house for a demo. Prisma pre and Impulse Monoblocs (overall close to their top combo).

Gap

The performances I have to say almost a magnitude difference, in terms of enjoyment.

Bass especially was amazing. Surreal texture. Punchy. High was no less impressive than 250, and if anything even clearer. Tremendous warmth like tube.

Question

The Tidal gears awfully expensive and huge (relatively). I would hate to fork out that money and even more to find space for those big boxes and cables.

So if 250 x 2 Devialet (or they call it 800?) is a big step up from 250, I would like to move in that direction. I don't think it would be possible for 800 to close the gap, but if small enough could settle....I think.

Could I ask feedback on 800 over 250 please? I think I only saw a couple of short comments about this comparison. I would be grateful if anyone could share more insights.

Thanks
KW

KW,

I recently bought an 800 as a second setup and can say other then the obvious lift in dynamic range there is no different in sonic signature from 250, where YOU will gain benefit is not having to drive amp as hard.

Now what I am gonna say here might be controversial but what the heck it's my opinion. Firstly it your waiting for burn in, forget it, sound doesn't change its your ears adjusting to it. The only piece of Hifi that has a scientific reason for burn in/break in is cart needles and speakers and even then it's a matter of hours not 100s of hours.

Now SQ wise I can say with confidence from my opinion that there are MANY things I have heard for the price of the 250/800 that are better, my primary setup Jeff Rowland for example.

BUT what you sacrifice in SQ at that price range you gain in tech, configurability, look, form factor, reduction in cables (potentially SAM) long life cycle due to firmware updates, reduction in amount of units. All are big bonuses!

As impressive as Devialet products are you do need to heed not taking in too much of the marketing BS.. Am I happy with my 800 indeed! It is best small form factor unit and all in one solution I've seen/heard. Have I heard better at same price and less yes, but not with the convenience!

Personally if I only had one system and multiple units, cables and racks weren't an issue I would look elsewhere.


Are they best all in one solution at price probably yes are they best Hifi at the price overall in my opinion not close

[Pim]

Hi all

I was referred here from another forum.

I don't see a clear answer to my question tho.  So I am posting it in this new thread.

History

I owned some mid-level Naim separates running high end speakers (Tidal Piano Diacera).  Of course not a good match, with speakers under utilized.

I trialed at the time Devialet 170 then 250.  170 was not a clear step up from Naim but 250 was.

250 exhibited all the strength of 170 (clarity, power, bass control) without the obvious weaknesses of 170 (thin and somewhat bland).

So I went with 250.

Past few weeks

Having had the amp for a while, I know this is not the ultimate.  The sound with this combo is below some of the best I had heard (within reasonable price).  While I listen to music frequently, over time enjoyment faded somewhat.

E.g. one of the best sounding combo I heard ran a McIntosh monobloc 1Kw into similar speakers, with McIntosh pre and Esoteric CDP.  That sound was quite unbelievable.

So 2 weeks ago I asked my Tidal dealer to bring Tidal amps to my house for a demo.  Prisma pre and Impulse Monoblocs (overall close to their top combo).

Gap

The performances I have to say almost a magnitude difference, in terms of enjoyment.

Bass especially was amazing.  Surreal texture.  Punchy.  High was no less impressive than 250, and if anything even clearer.  Tremendous warmth like tube.

Question

The Tidal gears awfully expensive and huge (relatively).  I would hate to fork out that money and even more to find space for those big boxes and cables.  

So if 250 x 2 Devialet (or they call it 800?) is a big step up from 250, I would like to move in that direction.  I don't think it would be possible for 800 to close the gap, but if small enough could settle....I think.

Could I ask feedback on 800 over 250 please?  I think I only saw a couple of short comments about this comparison.  I would be grateful if anyone could share more insights.

Thanks
KW

KW,

I recently bought an 800 as a second setup and can say other then the obvious lift in dynamic range there is no different in sonic signature from 250, where YOU will gain benefit is not having to drive amp as hard.

Now what I am gonna say here might be controversial but what the heck it's my opinion. Firstly it your waiting for burn in, forget it, sound doesn't change its your ears adjusting to it. The only piece of Hifi that has a scientific reason for burn in/break in is cart needles and speakers and even then it's a matter of hours not 100s of hours.

Now SQ wise I can say with confidence from my opinion that there are MANY things I have heard for the price of the 250/800 that are better, my primary setup Jeff Rowland for example.

BUT what you sacrifice in SQ at that price range you gain in tech, configurability, look, form factor, reduction in cables (potentially SAM) long life cycle due to firmware updates, reduction in amount of units. All are big bonuses!

As impressive as Devialet products are you do need to heed not taking in too much of the marketing BS.. Am I happy with my 800 indeed! It is best small form factor unit and all in one solution I've seen/heard. Have I heard better at same price and less yes, but not with the convenience!

Personally if I only had one system and multiple units, cables and racks weren't an issue I would look elsewhere.


Are they best all in one solution at price probably yes are they best Hifi at the price overall in my opinion not close

Interesting read DBdub. When you say SQ of your other setup is better. In what way do you mean it is? You made me curious.

Thanks,

Pim

[DBdub]

Hi all

I was referred here from another forum.

I don't see a clear answer to my question tho.  So I am posting it in this new thread.

History

I owned some mid-level Naim separates running high end speakers (Tidal Piano Diacera).  Of course not a good match, with speakers under utilized.

I trialed at the time Devialet 170 then 250.  170 was not a clear step up from Naim but 250 was.

250 exhibited all the strength of 170 (clarity, power, bass control) without the obvious weaknesses of 170 (thin and somewhat bland).

So I went with 250.

Past few weeks

Having had the amp for a while, I know this is not the ultimate.  The sound with this combo is below some of the best I had heard (within reasonable price).  While I listen to music frequently, over time enjoyment faded somewhat.

E.g. one of the best sounding combo I heard ran a McIntosh monobloc 1Kw into similar speakers, with McIntosh pre and Esoteric CDP.  That sound was quite unbelievable.

So 2 weeks ago I asked my Tidal dealer to bring Tidal amps to my house for a demo.  Prisma pre and Impulse Monoblocs (overall close to their top combo).

Gap

The performances I have to say almost a magnitude difference, in terms of enjoyment.

Bass especially was amazing.  Surreal texture.  Punchy.  High was no less impressive than 250, and if anything even clearer.  Tremendous warmth like tube.

Question

The Tidal gears awfully expensive and huge (relatively).  I would hate to fork out that money and even more to find space for those big boxes and cables.  

So if 250 x 2 Devialet (or they call it 800?) is a big step up from 250, I would like to move in that direction.  I don't think it would be possible for 800 to close the gap, but if small enough could settle....I think.

Could I ask feedback on 800 over 250 please?  I think I only saw a couple of short comments about this comparison.  I would be grateful if anyone could share more insights.

Thanks
KW

KW,

I recently bought an 800 as a second setup and can say other then the obvious lift in dynamic range there is no different in sonic signature from 250, where YOU will gain benefit is not having to drive amp as hard.

Now what I am gonna say here might be controversial but what the heck it's my opinion. Firstly it your waiting for burn in, forget it, sound doesn't change its your ears adjusting to it. The only piece of Hifi that has a scientific reason for burn in/break in is cart needles and speakers and even then it's a matter of hours not 100s of hours.

Now SQ wise I can say with confidence from my opinion that there are MANY things I have heard for the price of the 250/800 that are better, my primary setup Jeff Rowland for example.

BUT what you sacrifice in SQ at that price range you gain in tech, configurability, look, form factor, reduction in cables (potentially SAM) long life cycle due to firmware updates, reduction in amount of units. All are big bonuses!

As impressive as Devialet products are you do need to heed not taking in too much of the marketing BS.. Am I happy with my 800 indeed! It is best small form factor unit and all in one solution I've seen/heard. Have I heard better at same price and less yes, but not with the convenience!

Personally if I only had one system and multiple units, cables and racks weren't an issue I would look elsewhere.


Are they best all in one solution at price probably yes are they best Hifi at the price overall in my opinion not close

Interesting read DBdub. When you say SQ of your other setup is better. In what way do you mean it is? You made me curious.

Thanks,

Pim

Hey Pim, in pretty much every way. The ability of the amp to control and drive my speakers and managed the bottom end in what is consistently a 2ohm load. The way in which it portrays overall tonal balance of a CD, SACD or vinyl, little coloration and plays exactly what is on the source (only bad thing there is a bad recording really shows through) dynamics range is huge, the 800 is 800 watts into 6ohm and my Jeff 740 into 4ohm,Jeff has way more control when driving the amp hard, sonically the sound doesn't change whether at 60db or 110db, sound stage is more 3D and sits cleanly in my listening space and absolutely no fatigue whatsoever!

I've also done a comparo of my 800 against vitus ri-100 (550w) integrated and the 25w SA class A Amp, again both sonically sound better for various reasons!

Leading up to buying my 800 I also looked at some class D and integrated options around the 12-20k options and found quite a few comparable sonically but lost out in the overall integration in one unit, I would have needed an external DAC or a streamer, phono pre etc.

My strong personal opinion is that there is quite a lot of gear out there for less that matches Devialet SQ and I knew that buying the 800, personally I am fortunate enough to be able to buy it for ease of use, clean, functional and a more than acceptable music replication.

my priority was a device that was set and forget that gave me solid SQ.. Not the best sound quality for the money

Don't get me wrong I think the Devialet have an amazing product, especially if an all in one sleek design and minimal real estate is important. But if overall SQ is your main priority you can match it for less.

I think a lot of Devialet owners become blind to what's out there and fall into the slick marketing strategy of Devialet, the 25-30k you pay for a 800 or 17-20k u pay for a 400 ain't small change and there is a lot of hi end gear that will be up there for that price, even taking into account buying additional components such as DACs and phono pres.

To be frank the current marketing used by Devialet is become somewhat farcical ( not that they are only ones to do it) look at SAM freq response claims on speakers 28hz at what DB on a pair of LS50s. I measured my magico s3 last weekend with REW groundplain and in room and the claimed 11hz was well in the totally inaudible range, SAM on only so a slight DB lift down 3hz then matched factory curve. sAm makes a difference but not to their claims I can tell you that, phantom collateral is another example, sure it might end up being the best small form factor speaker on market, but silly claims like 1000x better then anything and aligning it to be tower killers is just absurd. Only need to look at the similar priced PV B&W sub to understand the limitation of physics relating to form factor, driver size etc.

I think for everything right Devialet are doing right now they are also driving customers away, they are treating it's more tech savvy consumers like idiots!

Peace and again I do love my Devialet but also I ain't afraid not to be a fan boy where they are going wrong

[Pim]

Hi DBdub,

What you're describing is what I always thought of Devialet before I bought mine. I can't say I have any experience with other gear but it's interesting to get someone's opinion who actually has some good other gear.
I bought my 200 because I wanted something small for what will be my bedroom but now I have it I'm very happy with the SQ to the point that I think I would be 100% happy if I get a proper music server rather than my Mac mini. But your story makes me think I should have a good look at what else is around there once I'm ready to get my big system for the living room.

Cheers,

Pim

[Damon]

....But if overall SQ is your main priority you can match it for less.

I think a lot of Devialet owners become blind to what's out there and fall into the slick marketing strategy of Devialet, the 25-30k you pay for a 800 or 17-20k u pay for a 400 ain't small change and there is a lot of hi end gear that will be up there for that price, even taking into account buying additional components such as DACs and phono pres.

I'm only stepping in to counter the idea that Devialet owners have fallen for the package over the product or marketing. I think that most owners have purchased the Devialet for its sound quality, many in spite of its appearance and limited upgrade options. Many listened to Devialet expecting to reject it, or were surprised (and disappointed) that it outperformed their more expensive systems.  The audio press seems to agree that the Devialet products provide remarkable value. Many owners had other systems that cost much more, and settled on Devialet as being better sounding for less money. That accounting can be at the D120 level or the D800 or D-Premier level. The Jeff Fritz articles are a very good example of this; he settled on the D120 after years of systems that cost much, much more.

The concept of 'the best' is not really worth debating because no such item exists. If it did, there would be widespread agreement that 'it' is 'the best'. You prefer the Jeff Rowland amps, the OP seems to prefer McIntosh, and John Atkinson in the Dec 2014 (I think) of Stereophile stated that the Pass Labs amps were the finest sounding he has heard. The preferred equipment varies with each set of ears. and each room, and all the other associated equipment. 

Finally, one thing that impresses me about this form is the lack of 'fanboy' posts. There are many good threads about difficulties with noise, or setup, or control or the way the company responds to customer issues. I suspect that many would have moved on to the other products that apparently give better sound for less money. That they haven't moved on suggests that the sound quality is hard to give up on.

[DBdub]

....But if overall SQ is your main priority you can match it for less.

I think a lot of Devialet owners become blind to what's out there and fall into the slick marketing strategy of Devialet, the 25-30k you pay for a 800 or 17-20k u pay for a 400 ain't small change and there is a lot of hi end gear that will be up there for that price, even taking into account buying additional components such as DACs and phono pres.

I'm only stepping in to counter the idea that Devialet owners have fallen for the package over the product or marketing. I think that most owners have purchased the Devialet for its sound quality, many in spite of its appearance and limited upgrade options. Many listened to Devialet expecting to reject it, or were surprised (and disappointed) that it outperformed their more expensive systems.  The audio press seems to agree that the Devialet products provide remarkable value. Many owners had other systems that cost much more, and settled on Devialet as being better sounding for less money. That accounting can be at the D120 level or the D800 or D-Premier level. The Jeff Fritz articles are a very good example of this; he settled on the D120 after years of systems that cost much, much more.

The concept of 'the best' is not really worth debating because no such item exists. If it did, there would be widespread agreement that 'it' is 'the best'. You prefer the Jeff Rowland amps, the OP seems to prefer McIntosh, and John Atkinson in the Dec 2014 (I think) of Stereophile stated that the Pass Labs amps were the finest sounding he has heard. The preferred equipment varies with each set of ears. and each room, and all the other associated equipment. 

Finally, one thing that impresses me about this form is the lack of 'fanboy' posts. There are many good threads about difficulties with noise, or setup, or control or the way the company responds to customer issues. I suspect that many would have moved on to the other products that apparently give better sound for less money. That they haven't moved on suggests that the sound quality is hard to give up on.

Hi mate

I don't by any means think "all" owners are falling for their slick marketing but quiet a few are. I agree that "best" is very subjective of course, sound, regardless of how a product benchmarks is very emotive and the inherit nature of how our brain filters impacts our perception of quality makes it to a certain degree an unreliable tool.

My point was, in my opinion, by buying separates you can get more for less if SQ is really your only focus and I stand by that, the OP was raising questions benchmarking the mcintosh (assuming the 1.2kw) as against a potential upgrade to 800 and my response was to provide him with food for though relating to that. To the OP I would go the mcintosh 1.2k over an 800 any day, maybe I needed to be more to the point if I didn't care about a pre, DAC and phono stage taken up space as well

Everyone's mileage may very and respect anyways choice I suppose I'm throwing my opinion out there.


As for my initial response to the Devialet I was very impressed that something so small and compact can offer so much and really is the bench mark for lifestyle products, do I think from an amplification perspective it can match a monoblock running 2kVA trannies on dedicated 20amp line, no, I don't think class D or Devialets hybrid technology is there yet, don't get me wrong I do think class D will mature (yes I know Devialet isn't class D technical it's A) but it still has a while to go, at the end of the day as long as your happy that's all that counts.

Class D has had a bad name for years now in the audiophile world main due to implementation rather then the potential of the technology, as perception is now changing you will now see audio providers now backing the tech with r and D which will mature the tech even more, I think class D is at a tipping point and will soon reach a good market share and be widely accepted as hi end!