Q: SAM - impact on small speakers bass (i.e. KEF LS50)

[MountainGuy]

Greetings,

Hope this is the right forum to post. All the SAM discussion seem to be gathered in this forum.

Question - having never heard Devialet's SAM in action, I am quite amazed by the claim that it now help the LS50 to produce bass down to 28hz. I believe that he LS50 is one of the first speakers that they matched to SAM. That is stunning bass extension for a speaker that small.

However, I'm not sure how SAM can produce much usable bass down to 28hz and if they limit woofer excursion so that there is no damage.

A few questions if I may:

1. Has anyone actually done a frequency sweep test to see what the dropoff is at 28hz? I wonder how flat it is down to 28hz.

2. And if it does get down to 28hz, what decibels is it actually capable of at that frequency response? Wondering how usable that is.

3. And if you use SAM with the LS50, what % do you set it and does it reduce the quality of the mids and trebles?

The claims of SAM is quite astounding to me - and yes, I realize that I'm a bit late to the party as this feature has been out a while. I've tried to google for answer but did not turn up any. Perhaps few people match a $6500 amp to a $1500 speaker...

Thanks!
MtnGuy

[amabrok]

Greetings,

Hope this is the right forum to post. All the SAM discussion seem to be gathered in this forum.

Question - having never heard Devialet's SAM in action, I am quite amazed by the claim that it now help the LS50 to produce bass down to 28hz. I believe that he LS50 is one of the first speakers that they matched to SAM. That is stunning bass extension for a speaker that small.

However, I'm not sure how SAM can produce much usable bass down to 28hz and if they limit woofer excursion so that there is no damage.

A few questions if I may:

1. Has anyone actually done a frequency sweep test to see what the dropoff is at 28hz? I wonder how flat it is down to 28hz.

2. And if it does get down to 28hz, what decibels is it actually capable of at that frequency response? Wondering how usable that is.

3. And if you use SAM with the LS50, what % do you set it and does it reduce the quality of the mids and trebles?

The claims of SAM is quite astounding to me - and yes, I realize that I'm a bit late to the party as this feature has been out a while. I've tried to google for answer but did not turn up any. Perhaps few people match a $6500 amp to a $1500 speaker...

Thanks!
MtnGuy

Hi MtnGuy

welcome to the forum, couple of other members match the KEF LS50 with Devialet and they are very pleased with the results, especially with SAM which seems to benefit smaller speakers more than full range floorstanders in the bass department. Indeed there are several reports on bigger bass with more control and extension but i am not aware of any scientific measurements to answer your question [sorry].

I speak from own personal experience when i say that SAM did very well with my previous Martin Logan ESL and really improved bass and i started to hear things i could not hear before and i assume they were all at much lower frequencies. but also amazingly i felt improvements in mid-range as well, bigger sound stage, more immediate presence and the feel that the vocals are right there in front of me!

maybe other members especially KEF LS50 owners would like to chip in.

cheers!

[MountainGuy]

Thanks Amabrok. Yes, I hope other owners of LS50 will chime in.

If SAM does what it says it does very well, then it is a significant paradigm shift that seem to potentially be a serious challenge to other amp manufacturers. And if they have that concept sewn up with patents, and they can port their technology downwards to lower cost units as their design and manufacturing cost drops, it could be a game changer. (Actually, the most extravagant claims of Devialet seem to be their Phantom speaker - but that is a different post...)

But that is if it does work as well as the claims are amazing. Down to 28hz on the LS50....wow! if it is usable and ample for normal level listening.

MtnGuy

[amabrok]

Thanks Amabrok. Yes, I hope other owners of LS50 will chime in.

If SAM does what it says it does very well, then it is a significant paradigm shift that seem to potentially be a serious challenge to other amp manufacturers. And if they have that concept sewn up with patents, and they can port their technology downwards to lower cost units as their design and manufacturing cost drops, it could be a game changer. (Actually, the most extravagant claims of Devialet seem to be their Phantom speaker - but that is a different post...)

But that is if it does work as well as the claims are amazing. Down to 28hz on the LS50....wow! if it is usable and ample for normal level listening.

MtnGuy

You are welcome MntGuy

I guess Devialet is doing exactly what you said. Originally SAM seem to have started as a technology for Phantom, but it somehow made it to the more premium Expert Line before the launch pf Phantom and it was an instant hit. You see now in electronics shows many Speakers manufacturers demo their loudspeakers using Devialet to benefit from of course the quality of ADH amp but more importantly to benefit from the SAM profile.

Now to your point, they have launched Phantom with SAM and ADH integrated in it and it is priced at a lower price to allow more and more consumers access to their technology.

and who knows what will be next...

[Dr Tone]

I did some sweep tests with my floor stander Focal 1028BEs and SAM is doing exactly as advertised. I removed my subs from my system right after.

[beerman]

A SAMed LS50 certainly has the bass power to fill a room, let's say about 13 x 15 foot, you will have no need for a subwoofer.

The LS50 is doing very well together with the Devialet, it has certainly it's reasons why the LS50 was under the very first SAMed speakers. It is an excellent speaker, don't mind the low price, by High End standards, a Devialet 200 is also ridiculous cheap, if you consider sound and it's possibilities.

Nevertheless I plead for the use of a subwoofer together with LS50.
A dsp controled subwoofer eliminates the room modes, once you heard this you won't step back. The LS50 can step in at about 80Hz. The now very small excursions of the loudspeaker cone will no more influect the mids. The active crossover of the Devialet gives you the almost unique possibility to do this. A well done LS50 / Subwoofer combination is hard to beat at any prices.

Who is listening in a room, is listening to the room. From genius partnership to vehement repulsion between speaker and room everthing is possible.

If you are a lucky guy and your room and the SAMed LS50 work together you will have a replay down to 28Hz and you will have no need for a subwoofer, speaker positioning naturally very important. The LS50 needs a lot of space behind her, then the 3D imaging is absolutly stunning. Don't make the mistake to place your Hifi rack between your loudspeakers, place it sideways.

[DBdub]

Thanks Amabrok. Yes, I hope other owners of LS50 will chime in.

If SAM does what it says it does very well, then it is a significant paradigm shift that seem to potentially be a serious challenge to other amp manufacturers. And if they have that concept sewn up with patents, and they can port their technology downwards to lower cost units as their design and manufacturing cost drops, it could be a game changer. (Actually, the most extravagant claims of Devialet seem to be their Phantom speaker - but that is a different post...)

But that is if it does work as well as the claims are amazing. Down to 28hz on the LS50....wow! if it is usable and ample for normal level listening.

MtnGuy

As good as the technology and the speakers are I can assure you it will not be +|- 3db at 28hz, add a 10db on to that at least

[audiophile911]

When SAM is activated, are you still able to use the digital xovers in the configurator? Mine are greyed out. (I have LS50's & D120)

[JohnnySix]

Personally, I'm mildly underwhelmed by what SAM does to my LS50's (let's say 80% happy!). Sure, the bass undergoes a phenomenal increase in quantity & control, but rather than subjectively improving the entire frequency range - as many report - it made the mid and treble frequencies seem "left behind" in the quality jump, making them feel unbalanced to me.
They certainly closed the gap on my £1100 XTZ floorstanders (SEAS drivers+Ribbon tweeter), but the XTZ still pull ahead with a more realistic presentation. The KEF's are very good at sweetening up digital music and making it more listenable, but ultimately I prefer to be told the truth!
What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather have SAM, but it leaves me wanting for them to push the frequency processing up beyond 150Hz... (not possible unless we go and fetch a Sharc DSP processor from the Future, I suppose).

[Confused]

Personally, I'm mildly underwhelmed by what SAM does to my LS50's (let's say 80% happy!). Sure, the bass undergoes a phenomenal increase in quantity & control, but rather than subjectively improving the entire frequency range - as many report - it made the mid and treble frequencies seem "left behind" in the quality jump, making them feel unbalanced to me.
They certainly closed the gap on my £1100 XTZ floorstanders (SEAS drivers+Ribbon tweeter), but the XTZ still pull ahead with a more realistic presentation. The KEF's are very good at sweetening up digital music and making it more listenable, but ultimately I prefer to be told the truth!
What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather have SAM, but it leaves me wanting for them to push the frequency processing up beyond 150Hz... (not possible unless we go and fetch a Sharc DSP processor from the Future, I suppose).

When talking to Devialet's chief engineer at a dealer event last year, he stated that full range SAM is possible and being considered for future implementation.  I guess this is a long way down Devialet's action list at the moment though.