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dB indicator flashing red
#21
(13-Jan-2015, 00:28)Riddo Wrote:
(10-Jan-2015, 18:06)Rufus McDufus Wrote: Probably not related but I've noticed recently that I have to have the volume control set high to achieve normal  listening volumes (in my case quite quiet). Typically a classical recording would be 0 to +5dB and rock -10dB or so. This is with SAM or without, playing via AIR from a PC or USB from my Cubox. I contact Devialet and they said it was normal - +38 is possible supposedly. Previously though I can remember typical listening volumes in the -25dB to -15dB range.  I wrote a new config and that didn't help either. No changes in my system significant enough to make such a big difference. Speakers are 88dB sensitivity.

Because I use Acourate filtered music where the louder frequency ranges are truncated to achieve a relatively "flat" target curve at the listening position, I usually listen at between +4 and +15. I never see clipping on the display, but the Devialet gets quite hot after a few hours (59-62). The only time I've noticed the volume lower than usual it's because the PC volume control is down - obviously not the case with you because of the two different sources.

It is intriguing to see how big the differences are between different owner's systems. I use mine with Tune Audio Animas or Goldmund Epilogs. I have also used them with KEF LS50s with an without SAM, and of course had a single D-Premier and dual mono D-Premier in the past too.
With the Animas my volume control will be around -40dB for modern pop music but probably more like -20dB on really good quality dynamic recordings.
The Goldmunds would be -30dB to -10dB in those circumstances.
The LS50 need -10dB but I am reluctant to push these small speakers too hard, they are not very efficient but their max power absorption can not be that high either.
I often listen at the sound levels I have measured at concerts (nowhere near possible with the LS50s) which is pretty loud.
I don't think I have ever needed 0dB volume level never mind a positive value.
I understood that 0dB represented maximum power at full digital modulation. Is that other people's understanding too?

If my recent experience of pop music recordings is typical it means that anybody using a +ve dB value on their volume control will frequently be in output clipping on pop music, though much less often on other music. Perhaps the bits I see at clipping are bass and cut with room correction, but that is to reduce frequencies which excite room modes so presumably whether there is clipping or not will be music related depending on the frequency content and compressor settings of a particular recording.

I have not used the configurator since last July, and don't really need to but am reluctant to do so at the moment anyway with all these reported faults Sad
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#22
(13-Jan-2015, 13:10)f1eng Wrote: I understood that 0dB represented maximum power at full digital modulation. Is that other people's understanding too?

That's an interesting question to which I gave a fleeting thought when I upgraded from a 200 to a 400.  I'd assumed that was exactly what 0 dB meant, but then I didn't hear an obvious change in volume when added the companion 200 which would presumably have doubled the maximum power output to which 0 dB is referenced.

A supplementary question is whether 0 dB is referenced to the maximum rated power of the amplifier, or the maximum power that the configuration allows.  If it's the latter it would explain what I (didn't) hear because I used the configurator to limit the maximum power output of the 400 combination to the same value I was using with a single 200.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#23
I will have to check again but I got the impression in the past that even for digital sources the volume setting for a given loudness also varies depending on which input is selected: in my case wi-fi, ethernet or coax. 

The sensitivity of my speakers is 88db spl (2.83V/1m) and I tend to listen at around -15dB for 'popular' music streamed via wi-fi AIR. They will in theory produce a max spl of 110dB at 1m...
IMac macOS 10.15.3 (no link to Devialet Sad ) / MacBook Pro Retina OS X 10.14.4 / Linn LP12 / Devialet 200 Wilson Benesch Discovery. 
Qobuz Desktop Latest Version / Audirvana 3.2.18 / Audirvana Remote / iTunes 12.9 / AIR 3.0.4 / Wi-Fi / FW 8.1.0 / SAM 50%
Cambridge, UK (Updated 27th February, 2020)
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#24
(12-Jan-2015, 17:29)f1eng Wrote: Whilst at an orchestral concert the loudest can indeed be over 100dB, at a concert that big the quietest moments of music will probably be around 60dB, so the dynamic range will rarely be more than 50dB.
I am glad I have not been to a rock concert at 150dB! The threshold of pain is around 120dB! but generally rock music has less dynamic range than classical, so even if the painful peaks were 150dB the equally painful quieter bits would probably still exceed 120dB, so 16 bit audio will still be plenty.
The difficulty will be, as ever, the choice of microphone.

I think I have a pretty quiet listening room. About 30dB background (40dB when the heating is running) 96dB on top of that is 126 to 136dB, which is not only hearing damage after a relatively short time but way outside the capability of the analogue side of any domestic sound system. So the dynamic range capability of CD is way more than is needed for even the biggest dynamics of classical music, which is just about possible to get on LP too, though it is very, very difficult to get the levels set accurately enough for LP. A bit too high and there is mistracking on loud bits, a bit too low and the quiet bits are ruined by hiss. 16 bit digital is easier, 24 bit digital requires no skill at all Smile
The maximum loudness of an orchestral concert is very loud at the conductor's position, thankfully not as loud where I sit. I have been making recordings for over 50 years, and now I have an app on my phone, sometimes measure the loudness and dynamic range at concerts. The peaks are frequently well over 100dB but the dynamic range rarely more than 50dB, even for Mahler and his ilk, less for classical period composers.
I am not familiar with the numbers you quote, but the singer one is not correct (I record classical singers mainly). At the post-course concert at a singers workshop last year one of the sopranos was registering 90dB at my listening position 1/3 way down the small auditorium.
The dynamic range of older non classical recordings I have checked (years ago) are more like 25dB iirc, not awful like some of the loudness war casualties, but still trivial for 16bit audio to encompass.

Thanks, I find this all very interesting - especially your experiences of making recordings.  The loudest concert I ever went to was The Orb  - it was so loud that I felt my trousers  flapping in time with the bass...

Anyway, I was keen to find out more about this so I did some reading and came up with the following:

DR as high as 118dB on a dithered audio stream is necessary for subjectively noise-free playback of music in a quiet listening environment (Ampex, 1981).  Other sources quoted 120dB so I assume this is about right.  Apparently noise-dithered 16-bit digital can give a perceived DR of 120dB...

The max DR of a live classical concert is around 80 dB so, as you say, well within the limits that can be captured on a CD.

BTW, the general recommendation is that SPLs of > 100 dB should be avoided as hearing loss is likely. 120db is generally considered to be the pain threshold.

I couldn't find any info on the actual DR of a complete hi-fi playback chain i.e. source-amp-speakers.  There were some vague references which indicated 60-70dB but I couldn't find anything concrete.  Do you have any info on this?

I found this Dr Lex article to be a good souce of info on trends in recording and the Loudness Wars.

This article on musicmachinery has some interesting analysis of the way the loudness of recordings has changed over the years.
IMac macOS 10.15.3 (no link to Devialet Sad ) / MacBook Pro Retina OS X 10.14.4 / Linn LP12 / Devialet 200 Wilson Benesch Discovery. 
Qobuz Desktop Latest Version / Audirvana 3.2.18 / Audirvana Remote / iTunes 12.9 / AIR 3.0.4 / Wi-Fi / FW 8.1.0 / SAM 50%
Cambridge, UK (Updated 27th February, 2020)
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#25
Interestingly my D200 doesn't seem to suffer high temperatures any more, even though the volume numbers appear higher to me than they once were. Typically volume is stable around the 40-42-ish mark. I think one of the recent firmware updates introduced some volume stabilising. I fear slightly that such temperature regulation must have had some effect on the power output at higher temperatures? They must be throttling back something.

I too thought that the 0dB represented max power at full modulation (so-called unity gain if that's the same thing?). I'm fairly convinced I hear more interference and general electrical noise when it's set to that volume which is why I'm not overly happy about it!
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