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Kef Reference 3 + Devialet 200
#11
'Science' aside (I'm an engineer so forgive me - deal with the bugger all day and in no mood to take it home Wink ) I have a little practical experience after spending a few weekends at dealers and home comparing various setups this past month. In the process I heard the KEF Reference Blades, Reference 3, Reference 1 and their previous Reference 4.2 flagship with a variety of amps from Chord, Bryston and Devialet.

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly regarding the Devialet 120 + Reference 1. It's a fantastic sounding pairing BUT despite Devialet's claim of SAM taking the speaker down to 23Hz...that I'm not so sure...maybe on paper but it sure doesn't hit that bottom octave the way KEF’s bigger Reference speakers do.

I recently downsized from the KEF Reference 4.2 + Bryston 7B-ST monoblocks (800W) and whilst the 120 + Reference 1 is nice - with my old setup you could feel the bass in your chest - it literally shook the whole house and the sound carried all the way down to the road  - the new setup...wellll...it's lovely and all and whilst it shakes the room, I don’t think the neighbors are likely to be complaining!

The Devialet 120 is plenty enough power for the Reference 1. It might stretch a little with the Reference 3 at higher volumes in which case to the OP - go for a 200 + Reference 3 and I'm pretty sure you'll be happy.

That said - if money’s not a problem - the Blade and KEF's previous Reference flagship do have the edge on the 3 (haven’t heard the 5). If you're crazy for bass and presence - and don’t get me wrong the Reference 3 isn’t far off but you’re gonna really need to stump up the big bucks and get at least a Reference 5 + Devialet 400.

As for why the Phantom is able to go so loud and deep with such a small enclosure. Physics plays its role. The Phantom enclosure is incredibly rigid and strong and can withstand 20x more pressure than a conventional speaker box. The pressure inside is apparently 174dB (equivalent to that of a rocket at launch - according to Devialet).

The drivers are made of far stiffer material than the paper and rubber woofers of most speakers and can withstand massive pressure. Furthermore their range of motion is far greater than a typical woofer so they can displace a greater amount of air.

It’s all in Devialet’s white paper on the Phantom:
http://en.devialet.com/assets/v2/White-P...tom-en.pdf
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#12
(19-Feb-2015, 23:43)dogbait Wrote: 'Science' aside (I'm an engineer so forgive me - deal with the bugger all day and in no mood to take it home Wink ) I have a little practical experience after spending a few weekends at dealers and home comparing various setups this past month. In the process I heard the KEF Reference Blades, Reference 3, Reference 1 and their previous Reference 4.2 flagship with a variety of amps from Chord, Bryston and Devialet.

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly regarding the Devialet 120 + Reference 1. It's a fantastic sounding pairing BUT despite Devialet's claim of SAM taking the speaker down to 23Hz...that I'm not so sure...maybe on paper but it sure doesn't hit that bottom octave the way KEF’s bigger Reference speakers do.

I recently downsized from the KEF Reference 4.2 + Bryston 7B-ST monoblocks (800W) and whilst the 120 + Reference 1 is nice - with my old setup you could feel the bass in your chest - it literally shook the whole house and the sound carried all the way down to the road  - the new setup...wellll...it's lovely and all and whilst it shakes the room, I don’t think the neighbors are likely to be complaining!

The Devialet 120 is plenty enough power for the Reference 1. It might stretch a little with the Reference 3 at higher volumes in which case to the OP - go for a 200 + Reference 3 and I'm pretty sure you'll be happy.

That said - if money’s not a problem - the Blade and KEF's previous Reference flagship do have the edge on the 3 (haven’t heard the 5). If you're crazy for bass and presence - and don’t get me wrong the Reference 3 isn’t far off but you’re gonna really need to stump up the big bucks and get at least a Reference 5 + Devialet 400.

As for why the Phantom is able to go so loud and deep with such a small enclosure. Physics plays its role. The Phantom enclosure is incredibly rigid and strong and can withstand 20x more pressure than a conventional speaker box. The pressure inside is apparently 174dB (equivalent to that of a rocket at launch - according to Devialet).

The drivers are made of far stiffer material than the paper and rubber woofers of most speakers and can withstand massive pressure. Furthermore their range of motion is far greater than a typical woofer so they can displace a greater amount of air.

It’s all in Devialet’s white paper on the Phantom:
http://en.devialet.com/assets/v2/White-P...tom-en.pdf

Thanks for this, it was very usefull! Big Grin
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#13
(19-Feb-2015, 20:19)stijjgv Wrote:
(19-Feb-2015, 20:07)f1eng Wrote:
(19-Feb-2015, 19:13)stijjgv Wrote: Then enlighten me my friend Smile
All I'm trying to say is that small speakers can't go that low in frequency then large speakers cause of their cabinet size and or drivers.
Like I said the Phantom goes low for its size and on paper is goes lower then some large floorstanders. It can give you the illusion of going
very low but put a big high end speaker beside it and it will be night and day. Software tweaks and engineering don't change the physical size of the speaker it can help but it's still limited.

So what you mean is that because I am saying small speakers can sound impressive but can't deliver those bottom octaves like larger speakers can
I'm telling things that aren't true and it's not credible. That's what I call a contradiction.

Sound is pressure fluctuation. If the pressure fluctuation is there the sound is.
Yes, using crude engineering the only way to get low frequencies is a big driver in a big box, or if efficiency isn't an issue, a heavy driver in a smaller box.
Using modern technology, and Devialet are not the only people doing this, though their method is unique to them, it is possible to measure the transfer function of any box/driver combination and use that data to produce whatever frequency response you want.
Yes the maximum loudness will be limited by the size and travel of the bass units and the available power. That is all. The distortion can be compensated for.

So if the Phantom has a -6dB point of 20Hz it will have as much bass (probably better because of less distortion) as a 15" unit in a big cabinet if that has a -6dB point at 20Hz (most won't actually they will have less bass than the Phantom)

The pressure fluctuations that exist which can be felt must be exactly the same whether produced by a big box or a small if the level and frequency are the same.
It is absolutely impossible for this not to be the case.
Those little air molecules whizzing back and forth to produce the pressure fluctuations at your body haven't got a clue as to whether their mates back near the speaker are being pushed back and forth by a big driver or a small one.
Philips did this decades ago, it is not new.
You are not the first person I have seen on internet forums who is finding this hard to understand though!

That sound interesting but if I understand you correctly.
This would mean that for example the Kef Ref 1 goes with SAM to 23hz, the Ref 3 go to +- 21hz with SAM.
So if what you are saying is correct then at a normal or little more then normal listening lvl's there won't be any difference between the Ref 1 & 3?
So why even bother making/buying the Ref 3 or even the Ref 5.

So for example in the same room the Kef reference 5 (short tube) won't go as deep in bass as the Harbeth P3ESR both with SAM enabled

http://en.devialet.com/speakers/kef/kef-...short-port
http://en.devialet.com/speakers/harbeth/harbeth-p3esr
People seem to be getting confused between bass volume and bass frequency.
These small speakers will not be able to go very loud at the low frequencies, obviously, and with the thermal and displacement mapping so well explained on the web site if you turn them up a lot the low bass will be progressively reduced relative to the mid range.
As far as why the Reference 3 or 5 are made not everybody has a Devialet amp with SAM capability!!!!
The vast majority of KEFs customers will have a normal amp with no capability of making the correction. For these people the bigger speakers have give a lower bass cutoff as has always been the case with traditionally engineered hifi (which has barely changed for 50 years).
The maximum loudness is an important limitation.
The silver phantom requires 3000 watts to achieve 105dB at one meter. My Tune Audio Animas only go down to 40Hz or so but I require less than 1 watt to achieve 105dB at 1 meter.
Big active pro monitors like ATC 150s achieve 117dB at 1 m with a 200W amp on the 15" bass unit.

If you want low bass AT HIGH VOLUME you will need a different speaker than if you don't listen that loud or have a smaller room.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the bass cutoff point of a SAMed speaker only how loud it can play at this frequency.
My Kef LS50s go really low with SAM, but I have only tried it once since in my big room these speakers are far too small to generate the volume at which I listen. They usually go in a small bedroom (with no Devialet) so do not benefit from SAM.
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#14
(20-Feb-2015, 10:19)f1eng Wrote: People seem to be getting confused between bass volume and bass frequency.
These small speakers will not be able to go very loud at the low frequencies, obviously, and with the thermal and displacement mapping so well explained on the web site if you turn them up a lot the low bass will be progressively reduced relative to the mid range.
I see, so for instance the SAM database gives 28.6Hz for the KEF LS50. However the bass volume (SPL?) would be very low for that versus a much larger speaker which also only goes down to 28.6Hz?

If so what is the point of the SAM figure? Shouldn't it be quoted ideally with a SPL value as well?
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#15
(20-Feb-2015, 13:18)dogbait Wrote:
(20-Feb-2015, 10:19)f1eng Wrote: People seem to be getting confused between bass volume and bass frequency.
These small speakers will not be able to go very loud at the low frequencies, obviously, and with the thermal and displacement mapping so well explained on the web site if you turn them up a lot the low bass will be progressively reduced relative to the mid range.
I see, so for instance the SAM database gives 28.6Hz for the KEF LS50. However the bass volume (SPL?) would be very low for that versus a much larger speaker which also only goes down to 28.6Hz?

If so what is the point of the SAM figure? Shouldn't it be quoted ideally with a SPL value as well?

Quite, and maybe it should, though most people do not. Even big speakers tend to have very high bass distortion at high levels. The whole speaker specs thing is a minefield particularly since room and location in room have as big an influence on bass as the speaker design itself. To quote a SPL would imply a distortion figure too and most speakers have many percent of distortion below 100 Hz.
The funniest SAM spec, IMO, is the LS3/5a which iirc has a travel limit of 2mm on its SAM protection profile, so it will not be very loud in the bass at all Smile
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#16
This whole business is a minefield isn't it? The number of times I've read stuff in reviews, worked stuff out on paper, used purest logic in my thinking, gone for an audition, and the result, very often absolutely the last thing I was expecting. Part of the fun in the hifi game I guess?
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#17
(18-Feb-2015, 22:54)stijjgv Wrote: Anybody has experience with this setup?
Going to buy a new setup soon, but the D400 is not really on my list because it's 12900 euros.

Will the D200 be able to drive the Kef Reference 3 properly?
I heard the D120 with the Kef Reference 1 and it was phenomenal!
Even though the Ref 1 sound impressive (very) I'm looking for that bottom octave it can't deliver therefore the Ref 3 would be ideal.

Thanks! Angel

Have you tried it?
 
D200, KEF LS50 / Sumiko S9 Sub Bass,  Audience AU24SE speaker,  Wireworld Silver Electra PC,  Wireworld Platinum Starlight, Straightwire Link USB,  Macbook Pro,  System76 (linux) SSD Laptop,  TP-LINK Archer C7 AC1750.  


living in Salt Lake City, USA
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