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Kef LS50 & Dynaudio C1
#1
Anyone have experience with both of these speakers ?

I have LS50 driven by a D200, and a pair of Kef R400b subs.
I bought the pair of Kef subs due to them being in the similar-family as the LS50, their very small size, their good looks, and "adequate" performance ( hence I bought two of them ) 

FYI:  My room is 13' x 21' and my setup is tweaked-out with:
Bryston BDP-2 as source ( internal SSD drive ) connected via Shunyata Zitron Anacionda AES/EBU cable
D200 & BDP-2 sit on top of double-inverted Symposium Rollerblocks
Audience AU24SE speaker cables
Shunyata VRay power conditioner
Virtual Dynamics Master 2.0-LE cords on everything
Recently spent real dollars on room treatments & bass traps -> made a large difference IMO
..... so my system is not for want of much when it comes to accessorizing and maxing out the potential of my electronics 

I think the LS50 are sensational for what they are, and at their very cheap price.

I am having difficulty getting "85% satisfaction" with my sub integration.
It is never perfect for every song ... is a system ever perfect for every song ???
I have settled on crossing over my LS50 at 80Hz 3rd-order.
I have SD cards with every permutation of 80 & 100 Hz at 1/2/3/4-order slopes

Aside from all the usual "audiophile" type of music, I am still a Rock 'N Roll guy at heart who sometimes likes it loud.
I need to "feel" my music.  I need my bass with impact & slam & envelopment.
I do not have confidence that with even further endless tweaking & measurements, I will get the satisfaction out of my LS50 & a pair of subs.

I think I need a "more full range" speaker.
One that gets me some slam & impact on its own.
I would still add a sub -> probably sell off my pair of Kef R400b, and get a single JL Audio F112/F113 for sub 40-50 Hz

Enter the Dynaudio C1.
The Stereophile review shows measurements ruler-flat to 50 Hz
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynau...asurements
Could this 2-way speaker make my happy enough  ? ... with say a single "great sub" to fill in the bottom end ?
Or would it only be a small upgrade from the LS50 when it comes to bass quantity & quality ?
Should I look at a 3-way speaker instead, such as  Kef Reference 3, or some Audio Physics, etc ?

Thanks for any advice ! ~ Andy ( in Waterloo, ON, Canada )
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#2
Hi Andy,

I own a pair of C1 mkII's and use them in a room similar in size to yours. My room is divided into two halves by two 2ft bracing walls and I sit almost halfway into the room, almost in between the bracing walls. So I'm about 9-10ft away from the speakers.

The bass is quite amazing for speakers that size for sure but if you want to feel the bass you will definitely need subs. I've never used subs but Jim Smith in his 'Get Better Sound' book warns against using one sub. He basically says that dividing your money into two and use two subs will alway give a better result than using just the one sub, even though you get a better sub for your money. So maybe keep that in mind.

With SAM on, the bass goes lower but if you want to 'rock' and turn up the volume then you will find that SAM will cut the bass out before it 'hits your chest'. Without SAM you can get a bit more volume from your bass but then you are in charge of the safety for your speakers; drive them too hard and you will ruin them. Although I have on occasion and haven't ruined them yet, I feel safer with SAM on.

I'm sure with your room treatment you will get a very satisfying sound from the C1's. I've not heard the LS50's yet so can't tell you about the difference in the two but the C1's are quite something.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#3
I am running the original C1s with my Dev200. As others have noted, these speakers having amazing bass for their small size. In my system I dont think SAM brings more bass, but IMO it does sharpen up the timing.

If buying C1 s the matching stands should be considered essential. I like how the speaker screws onto the stands, much better than having the speakers rest on the stand with gravity alone.

I have no experience with the LS50 s sorry.
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#4
I just had a look at your subs and got to thinking about the KEF Reference 1. On paper they don't go as deep as the C1's but they would definitely be on my short list. Given the components they are built with, I guess they would sound like an LS50 with more bass.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#5
Another C1 MkII owner here - an impressive amount of base for such a small speaker (I find that SAM definitely extends the base - but not necessarily any more defined - just my 2 cents. .) - but what always impresses me about the c1s is their combination of coherence and timbral accuracy with a sense of sweetness - (i.e. not thin or cold) - they just disappear.

As for true base slam. . . would definitely think about a sub . . but you might be surprised how loud they go without distortion esp with the D200! 
Roon/mac mini > hqplayer > sms-200 ultra and MC-3+ USB both clocked via Mutec Ref 10 > MIT Oracle MA-X AES/EBU > D440 > Dynaudio C1 MkII via MIT Matrix HD-60
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#6
For the last month I passed on SAM and ran my LS50 crossed at 80Hz 3rd-order, and full-range pre-out to my pair of Kef subs.
Now I'm going to go back with SAM on, but keep the SAM level low at 10-30% max.
I'll see if I can better integrate my subs that way.

BUT ..... "idle hands are the devil's workshop" .... and today I committed to some almost-new Vandersteen Treo CT ( carbon tweeter ) that were for sale on a local forum. There are very few speakers that interest me these days -> by "interest" I mean something more than some good drivers in a typical box. I've never owned Vandersteens, but their tech have always been of interest to me, and the Treo happen to be a 4-way design. The Treo won't have ground-pounding bass, but certainly more than the LS50, and certainly a different sonic presentation than the LS50. I'll give the Treo a go for a month or so and see which makes me happier -> LS50 or Treo. That will be Round 1. Who knows what's in store for Round 2 a couple months from now Big Grin
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#7
(26-Feb-2015, 01:59)ARL67 Wrote: For the last month I passed on SAM and ran my LS50 crossed at 80Hz 3rd-order, and full-range pre-out to my pair of Kef subs.
Now I'm going to go back with SAM on, but keep the SAM level low at 10-30% max.
I'll see if I can better integrate my subs that way.

BUT ..... "idle hands are the devil's workshop"  .... and today I committed to some almost-new Vandersteen Treo CT ( carbon tweeter ) that were for sale on a local forum.  There are very few speakers that interest me these days -> by "interest" I mean something more than some good drivers in a typical box.  I've never owned Vandersteens, but their tech have always been of interest to me, and the Treo happen to be a 4-way design.  The Treo won't have ground-pounding bass, but certainly more than the LS50, and certainly a different sonic presentation than the LS50.   I'll give the Treo a go for a month or so and see which makes me happier -> LS50 or Treo.  That will be Round 1.  Who knows what's  in store for Round 2 a couple months from now Big Grin

Congratulation. Let us know how you go. 
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#8
I'm reeeally liking my Vandersteen Treo CT !
I am running the Treo full range ( it is a 4-way design )
At first I still preferred my pair of Kef R400b subs in the mix, coming in low at 50 Hz or so, but they were still not the best integrated with the mains .

But then I found audio-nirvana by going sub-less, and using the Devialet's bass tone control to give some more bottom end.
I made SD cards for 50, 55, 60 Hz -> I am liking 50 Hz at +3 setting !
I still get perfect clarity, yet very good bass impact / depth / integration -> NOW no need for my subs.
( I still want to experiment with 40 & 45 Hz settings )

- Andy
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#9
(02-Mar-2015, 15:01)ARL67 Wrote: I'm reeeally liking my Vandersteen Treo CT !
I am running the Treo full range  ( it is a 4-way design )
At first I still preferred my pair of Kef R400b subs in the mix, coming in low at 50 Hz or so, but they were still not the best integrated with the mains .

But then I found audio-nirvana by going sub-less, and using the Devialet's bass tone control to give some more bottom end.
I made SD cards for 40, 50, 55, 60 Hz  ->   I am liking 40 Hz at +3 setting !
I still get perfect clarity, yet very good bass impact / depth / integration -> NOW no need for my subs.
( I still want to experiment with 35 & 45 Hz settings )

- Andy

That's what it's all about Andy. You liking it. Congratulations!
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#10
I ran a set of Kef LS50's with 2 massive SVS 13.5" sealed subs.
I wasnt using a devialet at the time , but a Rotel class D 250w amp.
I used a miniDSP unit to integrate the subs and speakers , I used 4th order 100hz filter in the minidsp to high pass to the LS50's

I then used the miniDSP to "shape" the bass to integrate it and to taste (flat bass at sitting position is not ok , it needs a lift , if you eq flat , you will have no bass..)

This is the way I would go , use the 200 to high pass the speakers and then use the pre out or a variable digital output to feed a 4x10 (digital in /digital or analog out) or a 2x4 minidsp unit (analog in and 2 analog out) and then do the eq there.
So you have a pure signal to the ls50's and you can safely use DSP via the miniDSP to the subs..as the small sonic signature it may add will be minimal compared to , lets say , you fixing a +10db hump at 40hz.

The controls you have in the minidsp units will far eclipse what you have in the subs , so you can run the subs with all their controls defeated.

Best of all , you can actually hear in real time as you adjust gain , freq , slope , shelving , phase ,volume etc
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch  > Trinnov St2 or DIRAC (minidsp ddrc-22d) > Dual mono D premiers > Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits  ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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