Kef LS50 & Dynaudio C1

[ARL67]

Rodney, thanks for your sub integration process.

From what I have seen, most of the digital-EQ devices max out at 24/96 inputs.

A big part of me getting back into high-end 2-channel was system-simplification -> less gear clutter, cables, crap on the floor & racks. Me being a life long computer-guy, I can certainly "play" with the added electronics like digital-EQ, but did not want to go down that road in my stereo rig. ..... Easier/Preferred for my to buy an almost full-range speaker in my Vandersteen Treo

I still need to measure my room one of these days.
I could always insert a digital in/out EQ-device ( miniDSP ) between my Bryston BDP-2 and Devialet.
But that would take a lot of convincing or bothersome room problems.

- Andy

[Pim]

I ran a set of Kef LS50's with 2 massive SVS 13.5" sealed subs.
I wasnt using a devialet at the time , but a Rotel class D 250w amp.
I used a miniDSP unit to integrate the subs and speakers , I used 4th order 100hz filter in the minidsp to high pass to the LS50's

I then used the miniDSP to "shape" the bass to integrate it and to taste (flat bass at sitting position is not ok , it needs a lift , if you eq flat , you will have no bass..)

This is the way I would go , use the 200 to high pass the speakers and then use the pre out or a variable digital output to feed a 4x10 (digital in /digital or analog out) or a 2x4 minidsp unit (analog in and 2 analog out) and then do the eq there.
So you have a pure signal to the ls50's and you can safely use DSP via the miniDSP to the subs..as the small sonic signature it may add will be minimal compared to , lets say , you fixing a +10db hump at 40hz.

The controls you have in the minidsp units will far eclipse what you have in the subs , so you can run the subs with all their controls defeated.

Best  of all , you can actually hear in real time as you adjust gain  , freq , slope , shelving , phase ,volume etc

Interesting Rodney, that you went from LS50's + subs to G1's. I've often thought about two ways and subs instead of floor standers. How would you describe the difference between the two? (discarting the difference in amps of course, if you can at all) 

[Confused]

I then used the miniDSP to "shape" the bass to integrate it and to taste (flat bass at sitting position is not ok , it needs a lift , if you eq flat , you will have no bass..)

This comment interested me.  When I last checked the frequency response in my room with room correction software, it indicated a bass "hump" in the sub 100hz range.  To me it sounds fine!  Although on paper, it would suggest I need some room conditioning, bass traps etc.  Perhaps I shouldn't worry to much!

[f1eng]

I then used the miniDSP to "shape" the bass to integrate it and to taste (flat bass at sitting position is not ok , it needs a lift , if you eq flat , you will have no bass..)

This comment interested me.  When I last checked the frequency response in my room with room correction software, it indicated a bass "hump" in the sub 100hz range.  To me it sounds fine!  Although on paper, it would suggest I need some room conditioning, bass traps etc.  Perhaps I shouldn't worry to much!

I know Rodney is a specialist in room equalisation and has posted about it on several forums.
I have a different belief and experience. 
I am a believer in one's ears ability to sort most of the bass problems out inside your head.
If the walls are hard and echo-y it just sounds bad, but IMHO, as long as you are prepared to do a bit of speaker position optimisation the bass humps can be maintained below a level that our automatic psycho-acoustic selves compensate for. We automatically "know" that bass will be uneven in a room because a lifetime of listening to people talking and music playing in rooms has been imprinted in our subconscious.
I have a DSPeaker 2.0 and have tried using it in my room and I do not hear its "correction" as an improvement.
If my daughter plays her cello in here I am sure the room effect is exactly the same as with the hifi, but it still sounds like her cello to me.
A lot of music is played in this room, both on the hifi and live instruments.
I haven't switched my DSDeaker 2.0 on for months...

[Rodney Gold]

I only tried the LS50's out of curiosity , I was actually running full range Meridian DSP6000 speakers with the subs.
The sheer scale , dynamics , unlimited volume , and and and of these and the G1's far eclipse the LS50/sub combo.

Chalk and cheese really..the Kefs struggled in my room to get decent volumes and only did so with quite severe high passing. I listen pretty loud. I paid $1000 for them and sold them on for the same price..was just an interesting exercise.
Its a totally unfair comparison to G1's tho.. and the rotel class D 250w amp I was using is rubbish compared to the devialet - tried it on my G1's
Anechoically , a speaker system should measure flat , but a room has room gain and treble droop so the ideal curve at listening position actually should rise below 100 hz and roll off at 5k+ ie slope down from low bass to high treble.
"target" curves are also a matter of taste , there is no real universal truth as to what folk like,

F1 bad bass in a room will sound bad .. huge humps in the low bass will occlude anything , your ears and brain can compensate and sort out some stuff , but a hugely live room is still bad in just about any situation
Flutter echo , slap echo , room modes , peaks , suckouts cannot be ignored or compensated for.
Yes , you can accept that thats what you got in the room , but you can do a ton better.

The room is by far the most important component of all .. I have just done a massive rebuild of my dedicated listening room , a $10 000 job which is cheap compared to my gear cost.. I have yet to hear the system in it tho.. that happens tomorrow.. Im salivating.

Have a look at this thread to see just what effort I have gone to to get that perfect room
http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,41561.0.html

[Pim]

Now THAT's a room! Awesome Rodney!

[bobertk]

Anyone have experience with both of these speakers ?

I have LS50 driven by a D200, and a pair of Kef R400b subs.
I bought the pair of Kef subs due to them being in the similar-family as the LS50, their very small size, their good looks, and "adequate" performance ( hence I bought two of them ) 

FYI:  My room is 13' x 21' and my setup is tweaked-out with:
Bryston BDP-2 as source ( internal SSD drive ) connected via Shunyata Zitron Anacionda AES/EBU cable
D200 & BDP-2 sit on top of double-inverted Symposium Rollerblocks
Audience AU24SE speaker cables
Shunyata VRay power conditioner
Virtual Dynamics Master 2.0-LE cords on everything
Recently spent real dollars on room treatments & bass traps -> made a large difference IMO
..... so my system is not for want of much when it comes to accessorizing and maxing out the potential of my electronics 

I think the LS50 are sensational for what they are, and at their very cheap price.

I am having difficulty getting "85% satisfaction" with my sub integration.
It is never perfect for every song ... is a system ever perfect for every song ???
I have settled on crossing over my LS50 at 80Hz 3rd-order.
I have SD cards with every permutation of 80 & 100 Hz at 1/2/3/4-order slopes

Aside from all the usual "audiophile" type of music, I am still a Rock 'N Roll guy at heart who sometimes likes it loud.
I need to "feel" my music.  I need my bass with impact & slam & envelopment.
I do not have confidence that with even further endless tweaking & measurements, I will get the satisfaction out of my LS50 & a pair of subs.

I think I need a "more full range" speaker.
One that gets me some slam & impact on its own.
I would still add a sub -> probably sell off my pair of Kef R400b, and get a single JL Audio F112/F113 for sub 40-50 Hz

Enter the Dynaudio C1.
The Stereophile review shows measurements ruler-flat to 50 Hz
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynau...asurements
Could this 2-way speaker make my happy enough  ? ... with say a single "great sub" to fill in the bottom end ?
Or would it only be a small upgrade from the LS50 when it comes to bass quantity & quality ?
Should I look at a 3-way speaker instead, such as  Kef Reference 3, or some Audio Physics, etc ?

Thanks for any advice !   ~ Andy ( in Waterloo, ON, Canada )

Au24se is not a great match for the LS50's, so there is that ( I own both and find the inexpensive Kimber 4tc to be far preferable w the Kefs )

I have sumiko sub and matching is problematic so far.  I will say your crossover is too high - try 40-50hz w more volume on the sub.

I also think you may have too much sub for the room - mine is 23 * 12 and one sub overloads it.

One more thing - I swapped wireworld powercord in for shyunta and it was a night and day improvement.  

my 2c fwiw