A lot of hot AIR from Devialet?

[IanG-UK]

Thanks IanG-UK,
I really appreciate that you did not take my post as diminishing the problem or the experiences of the users in any way. It is interesting that you note the problem occurs even with 16/ 44.1 files. One of the points I made in my post was to mention my file size, as it seemed that the noise seemed to be a factor on higher res. files. So, good clarification on that point.

On the Expert line vs Phantom / Dialogue / Spark distinction, I was thinking that the issues with the Phantoms may be specific to the new equipment, and possibly new software. A flaw in the AIR system, whether hardware or software, should not be shelved while they fuss with the new toys.

Finally, I would add that one of the reasons I abandoned Naim was the relentless fallibility of the app and UPnP streaming... (well, the sound quality difference made the change inevitable). I can't tell you how pleased I am with the stability I've experienced with the D120. After the Naim streaming grief, I do have genuine sympathy for the issues you are experiencing. Gawd, the swearing was incredible.....

I quite agree with you on the Expert v Phantom shortcomings. They have got neither right, and I am surprised they launched a flawed product without managing an existing one.

As I said in my original post, it's rather like BMW failing to fix an expensive 7 series fault for 8 months and then deciding it is more important to fix a newly launched cheap Mini fault when the wheels fall off.

Unrelated, but your Naim experience may have some vague connection with recent posts here on the new Melco products. Apparently Alan Ainslee has helped develop the new and highly rated Melco products (see a long thread on this started by Guillaume, who has tried many of the leading products)  and was with Naim, probably before their streaming development stalled. Maybe Devialet should recruit him!

[colonel66]

Thanks IanG-UK,
I really appreciate that you did not take my post as diminishing the problem or the experiences of the users in any way. It is interesting that you note the problem occurs even with 16/ 44.1 files. One of the points I made in my post was to mention my file size, as it seemed that the noise seemed to be a factor on higher res. files. So, good clarification on that point.

On the Expert line vs Phantom / Dialogue / Spark distinction, I was thinking that the issues with the Phantoms may be specific to the new equipment, and possibly new software. A flaw in the AIR system, whether hardware or software, should not be shelved while they fuss with the new toys.

Finally, I would add that one of the reasons I abandoned Naim was the relentless fallibility of the app and UPnP streaming... (well, the sound quality difference made the change inevitable). I can't tell you how pleased I am with the stability I've experienced with the D120. After the Naim streaming grief, I do have genuine sympathy for the issues you are experiencing. Gawd, the swearing was incredible.....

I quite agree with you on the Expert v Phantom shortcomings. They have got neither right, and I am surprised they launched a flawed product without managing an existing one.

As I said in my original post, it's rather like BMW failing to fix an expensive 7 series fault for 8 months and then deciding it is more important to fix a newly launched cheap Mini fault when the wheels fall off.

Unrelated, but your Naim experience may have some vague connection with recent posts here on the new Melco products. Apparently Alan Ainslee has helped develop the new and highly rated Melco products (see a long thread on this started by Guillaume, who has tried many of the leading products)  and was with Naim, probably before their streaming development stalled. Maybe Devialet should recruit him!

Hi Ian

Strangely when i updated to Yosemite and then latest Devialet firmware etc last year,  i started to experience problems with AIR over Ethernet - i had just sold my last squeezebox - which at the time i regretted. I am still not sure what the exact definition of white noise is but my experience is that the track momentarily becomes garbled/static type of sound for a second and then resumes. this could happen multiple times per album

I logged a report and got the typical "we are working on it  reply". Followed up with support a few times and got the same response

This calendar year we have a concept called "load shedding" in SA - basically the power utility can't produce enough to supply electricity to all at times so the cut off supply to predetermined areas for a couple of hours or so. When the power comes back there is a big risk of a power surge -so i now unplug my devialet's and other hi fi equipment  from the wall socket when not in use

strangely enough, i have now found AIR/Ethernet to be remarkbly stable - i listen to mostly 44.1 but have a smattering of higher res. - 

i would not say it is entirely gone - now and again it will raise its head but this is perhaps one out of ten albums and only once per album then. 

clearly it is not practical to unplug like i have to and possibly its coincidental but bring on your survey and i am will respond

ps thanks for all the hard work and frustration in the background of devialet's engineering dept

[IanG-UK]

Thanks IanG-UK,
I really appreciate that you did not take my post as diminishing the problem or the experiences of the users in any way. It is interesting that you note the problem occurs even with 16/ 44.1 files. One of the points I made in my post was to mention my file size, as it seemed that the noise seemed to be a factor on higher res. files. So, good clarification on that point.

On the Expert line vs Phantom / Dialogue / Spark distinction, I was thinking that the issues with the Phantoms may be specific to the new equipment, and possibly new software. A flaw in the AIR system, whether hardware or software, should not be shelved while they fuss with the new toys.

Finally, I would add that one of the reasons I abandoned Naim was the relentless fallibility of the app and UPnP streaming... (well, the sound quality difference made the change inevitable). I can't tell you how pleased I am with the stability I've experienced with the D120. After the Naim streaming grief, I do have genuine sympathy for the issues you are experiencing. Gawd, the swearing was incredible.....

I quite agree with you on the Expert v Phantom shortcomings. They have got neither right, and I am surprised they launched a flawed product without managing an existing one.

As I said in my original post, it's rather like BMW failing to fix an expensive 7 series fault for 8 months and then deciding it is more important to fix a newly launched cheap Mini fault when the wheels fall off.

Unrelated, but your Naim experience may have some vague connection with recent posts here on the new Melco products. Apparently Alan Ainslee has helped develop the new and highly rated Melco products (see a long thread on this started by Guillaume, who has tried many of the leading products)  and was with Naim, probably before their streaming development stalled. Maybe Devialet should recruit him!

Hi Ian

Strangely when i updated to Yosemite and then latest Devialet firmware etc last year,  i started to experience problems with AIR over Ethernet - i had just sold my last squeezebox - which at the time i regretted. I am still not sure what the exact definition of white noise is but my experience is that the track momentarily becomes garbled/static type of sound for a second and then resumes. this could happen multiple times per album

I logged a report and got the typical "we are working on it  reply". Followed up with support a few times and got the same response

This calendar year we have a concept called "load shedding" in SA - basically the power utility can't produce enough to supply electricity to all at times so the cut off supply to predetermined areas for a couple of hours or so. When the power comes back there is a big risk of a power surge -so i now unplug my devialet's and other hi fi equipment  from the wall socket when not in use

strangely enough, i have now found AIR/Ethernet to be remarkbly stable - i listen to mostly 44.1 but have a smattering of higher res. - 

i would not say it is entirely gone - now and again it will raise its head but this is perhaps one out of ten albums and only once per album then. 

clearly it is not practical to unplug like i have to and possibly its coincidental but bring on your survey and i am will respond

ps thanks for all the hard work and frustration in the background of devialet's engineering dept

Hi Colonel

Thanks for your post. Luckily we don't get "load shedding" in the UK - well, at least not yet.

We are finalising the survey - just trying to make it simple yet comprehensive. Getting a definition of white noise is proving tricky. Some will view it as only a sustained random signal of constant density; others include drop outs; others include sporadic crackles. I am thinking of including all those in the definition in the lead survey and running a parallel survey where owners can specify the interference type. It should be ready in the next couple of days.

I'm afraid everyone gets the "we are working on it" reply from Devialet and have done for months. Which is why I now doubt that they are, at least in terms of the resource required.

[bederi]

Although “white noise”, in some form, predates the start of the most populated thread within Streaming some nine months ago, it is probably fair to say that it has been a more prominent issue over that latter period, following the changes from the D-Premier to the 120/200/250/400/800 series in the second half of 2013, and Firmware 7.1.1 in ~August 2014, along with AIR 2.1.2 in ~May 2014 and AIR 2.1.3 in ~October 2014.

Those events, taken together, should have been Devialet’s opportunity to finally nail AIR which is, after all, one of their four USPs along with ADH, SAM and EVO (which, in relation to the configurator, does not work in a robust manner either).

I’ve been dealing directly and patiently with Devialet over many months to try to help trace this fault, which Devialet claims affects 2% - 5% of users - but which I suspect impacts far more users - though many of those may have given up with AIR altogether.

The 2% - 5% level probably refers to those of us who are still persisting - after all, Devialet did assure us that AIR would give us the very best sound quality and was Devialet's best input.

Over the months, I’ve tried:

- my 800, my two 250s separately, and a brand new 250 on loan;

- an iMac source and a MacBook Pro source;

- four routers - a BT Home Hub, an Airport Extreme Time Capsule, an Airport Express Time Capsule and a Draytek 2860;

- two sets of ethernet cables;

- three different mains supplies - raw mains, a PS Audio PPP and a Shunyata Triton/Typhon;

- many different SD cards and configurations, including five different ones repeatedly; and

- ethernet and wifi using both hi-res and 16/44.1.

(These amount to almost 4,000 combinations and I have not tried them all(!) but I guess I have tried over 100 and they all produce white noise, some very quickly, others after a few hours.)

All were tried with encouragement from Devialet and based on the amazing admission that Devialet had no idea as to the cause of the white noise. I have personally committed huge amounts of time to try to narrow down the fault; including giving regular feedback to Devialet and its engineers.

But that engineering department is like a ‘black hole” - lots of information goes in and no feedback comes out. Indeed I suspect that my efforts have been futile and that it is quite possible that Devialet has known, for many months, that this problem is a software fault which they are unable to solve without major development work which would take much time and resource. But perhaps they have been unwilling to admit it.

I also suspect that “AIR1” might well have been the right architecture for this product; and what we have now, “AIR2”, might be irreversibly flawed. Maybe they really need to develop “AIR3” and that is not their priority …

… because, of course, they have largely abandoned development/maintenance of the newly titled “Expert” range (or should it be the “Incompetent” range) and, in a desire to make bigger profits quickly, turned their attention to Phantom and Dialog and Spark … where it is already clear that Dialog and Spark are very problematic.

I do find it a bit rich that they are giving priority to two new products which cost up to about £3,250 per stereo pair and abandoning a key element of a product costing up to £27,500.

It’s rather like a committed BMW 7 Series user finding that he is only able to drive his car in first gear for eight months with the manufacturer telling him to try the windscreen wipers or the radio to see if that cures it; when the manufacturer then goes off and spends all their time hurriedly developing a new cheap Mini - only to launch it and find that the wheels fall off once you start driving it.

To Devialet’s credit, they did try a brand new 250 in my home - with the same white noise results - and then they decided, either graciously or naively, to take back my 800s to be tested in the factory. It was no surprise to learn that they found no hardware fault. 

What I find most infuriating is that, in reporting that result to me, their email said:

"Our whole software team is temporarily dedicated to improving the early version of the Phantom software, as we are currently receiving some first-user feedbacks on issues that we can address immediately. Please be assured that once this heavy workload decreases, the next topical issue on top of our software team's agenda is going to be AIR.”

Or to put it another way:

“Our brand new customers, spending up to £3,250 with us, are more important than customers who have been with us for up to four years and have spent up to £27,500 and been brand advocates. But don’t worry, we will get to them eventually though it may take months. But you are used to it as we have done nothing for eight months already.”

I remember the original marketing for AIR: “The best cable is no cable”.

Now the best marketing for AIR should be: “The best Devialet is no Devialet”.

This product  gets the award for the very best and the very worst item of hifi I have ever bought.

Ian,
I'll add myself to the list of "Expert" owners that completely agree with your annoyance with Devialet. With so many developers available, two or three of them should be dedicated to deal with AIR and the problems related to the older models. After I updated my D-Premier to a 250 I tried AIR ethernet. It failed within 15 minutes. I've used USB or AES/EBU since then. For my self I have been trying to push Devialet to keep their promises regarding room correction. At some point Thierry stopped answering emails and other help desk personnel took over. I guess the volume of email became too much for Thierry, but the new help desk function seems so far removed from the influential people at Devialet that writing to support@devialet is now a waste of time.
I am impressed with your patience with Devialet. The 2-5% figure is more like 20-50%. I think Devialet is lying, both to themselves and us. Your efforts should have given results a long time ago!

+1. I just scanned through all posts and cannot more than agree. Almost everything said, I've also tried quite a few configurations, both Windows and OS/X based (I am running a MacMini with bootcamp). I will gladly support any poll / action in order to solve the drop-out and white noise issues.

[IanG-UK]

The Polls are now posted.

Please reply to the first one if you have ever used AIR. The second one is relevant only if you have experienced "white noise".

To devise a simple poll which gives conclusive results is probably impossible, and this presented most difficulty in the definition of white noise. Having taken advice from a longstanding Devialet user who knows a lot about IT and networks, I decided to run with two polls. Not perfect but probably not too bad!

[IanG-UK]

Please reply to the poll(s) if relevant and if you have not already done so. The more qualitative and quantitative data I get, the more effective is the case which can be put to Devialet. I am in correspondence with two of the partners so this is our best opportunity to get some action.

Thank you.

[pete86]

Thanks for doing this. I have given up on AIR because of the white noise issue. Hopefully this can motivate devialet to finally fix it.

[Damon]

Ian,

Just want to add my thanks to you for putting in the time and energy on this issue. We all benefit from your efforts, even if we have not had noise or dropouts. I think everyone here agrees that the sound of the Devialet is fantastic, and we want it to be a superb product in all aspects of its performance. I hope that Devialet will see that they can secure a significant number of owners who will promote the product to others, as well as stay with the product line for upgrades or expansion in the future.

[IanG-UK]

Ian,

Just want to add my thanks to you for putting in the time and energy on this issue. We all benefit from your efforts, even if we have not had noise or dropouts. I think everyone here agrees that the sound of the Devialet is fantastic, and we want it to be a superb product in all aspects of its performance. I hope that Devialet will see that they can secure a significant number of owners who will promote the product to others, as well as stay with the product line for upgrades or expansion in the future.

Thank you Damon. On your last point I could not agree more. Brand advocacy is worth an awful lot. And you can get no worse than moving fervent advocates to fervent critics, as currently appears possible.

[Ants]

Just wanted to report my findings seeing I've had issues with crackling noises since the beginning. Wanting to experiment a little, I used the AIR-ETH exclusively this evening to play music. All music files used are 16/44 ALAC. I listened to four complete albums in a row. On the fifth, halfway through the crackles began. I simply stopped and restarted the play button on iTunes and noise was gone. I was able to listen to the remainder of the album without any issues. No changes to network settings. I was as I always do, using my laptop for some light surfing and email on the same network.

Tomorrow, I will try a blend of 16/44 and 24/96 using the same connection to see if I can maintain a crackle free music session for a few hours.